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  1. #31
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Elfboy, why do you want to like us?

    For the record, I'm an SJ and even I don't understand what's going on around me.
    you caught me I can't stand 80% of the SJs I know lol, but I at least want to understand them better so that I can make a more informed decision about which one's I don't like vs which one's I just don't understand. I suppose I believe in giving people a chance if I don't understand them
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  2. #32
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I do understand the op perfectly, could infact be something I've written myself and therefore I think its a view on matters from a very N perspective.

    I like to finetune the idea with regards to SJ being intrested in new ideas, but often demanding deep logical consistency. It's my natural state to let the brain wander and to daydream, the only thing that keeps me sane is a fundamental understanding of the natural laws and a kinda boolean logic. In discussion with SJs I am often forced to make sense with what I say and of course that is necessary in the business world, yet on a more friendship based level or in my private sphere, I feel kinda humiliated by the need for everything to make perfect sense by SJs.

    Thats why I tend to avoid their presence when I want to have fun. There are people on this world who actually can understand me without me needing to explain everything.

    I have learnt to develop a very methodical and analytical approach to do things, largely influenced by my education in University. Still I havent managed to think like that too, my mind's still an abstract mess when it comes to thinking about things. That's why I like written conversations, cause then I have time to check my own thoughts for consistency, in verbal conversation I most often firstly recognize I am talking bullshit, the moment after I've said it.

    Working with people demanding from me to make sense every second is very straining and drains a lot of my energy. Still I understand that it is ncessary. There are SJs who are different, like my ESTJ boss who deeply values my ideas and encourages me to elaborate and to think about them openly and while I am in the room with her. She understood that I just do things differently and she has learnt to respect that to be rewarded with the answer he was looking for. I deeply appreciate her doing that for me.

    I think the majority of my colleagues think that I am an idiot and I cant say they are really wrong about that. Yet my responsibilities in the company keep growing and I am often consulted for my technological expertise and ideas around future developments, I feel that my superiors respect me and see potential in me. I hope I'll maintain to operate stable in this business world and to keep up the fascade of a phillistine life. I am quite convinced tho, at some point in my life, I'll blow it again and do something differently .
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I disagree with the OP, because that's not how SJs process new information. Speaking as an ESTJ, if you give me a new worldview, and enough evidence from trustworthy sources, I may be surprised by the worldview, but I will believe you immediately. Honestly, if all SJs are like me, they process new information as quickly as you ENxPs can.
    It's a well attributed fallacy of some P types, especially the EP types, that simply stating their opinion will make another change their mind...

    Like seriously, bring substantial information and analysis to the table then people will change their mind if it is factual, otherwise J types will stick to their opinions.

    Also note that P, especially EP types are the last people to change their mind when it comes to matters of opinion.

    As ever, if you want a different response from the process provide different/higher quality outputs; we all know we cannot control other peoples reactions, only our own actions.

    I think they often feel that people don't take them seriously because they don't have a lot of luck convincing others; this makes me feel sorry for them in a way, but I hope their first reaction is to say: 'Okay this person is not changing their mind; if I want to convince them what can I provide to them to convince them?' rather than 'This person is closed-minded because they do not agree with me.'

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I have learnt to develop a very methodical and analytical approach to do things, largely influenced by my education in University. Still I havent managed to think like that too, my mind's still an abstract mess when it comes to thinking about things. That's why I like written conversations, cause then I have time to check my own thoughts for consistency, in verbal conversation I most often firstly recognize I am talking bullshit, the moment after I've said it.
    It's okay entropie. We still like you really.

  4. #34
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think they often feel that people don't take them seriously because they don't have a lot of luck convincing others; this makes me feel sorry for them in a way, but I hope their first reaction is to say: 'Okay this person is not changing their mind; if I want to convince them what can I provide to them to convince them?' rather than 'This person is closed-minded because they do not agree with me.'
    You dont have to, I wont be pissed if someone doesnt take me seriously, it only shows me that he and me are incompatible. For whatever reasons that maybe. I generally get the most from people I dont have to explain every thing to in detail, I feel alot thru a conversation, I think logic and pragmatism should be applied to a nice Mercedes but not to conversation with people. I get the most from a conversation only then when I feel energized, enlightened and amused by every thing the other one says.

    I have a very high demand towards the interlocutor to understand me and emphatize with me right from the start.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #35
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I do understand the op perfectly, could infact be something I've written myself and therefore I think its a view on matters from a very N perspective.

    I like to finetune the idea with regards to SJ being intrested in new ideas, but often demanding deep logical consistency. It's my natural state to let the brain wander and to daydream, the only thing that keeps me sane is a fundamental understanding of the natural laws and a kinda boolean logic. In discussion with SJs I am often forced to make sense with what I say and of course that is necessary in the business world, yet on a more friendship based level or in my private sphere, I feel kinda humiliated by the need for everything to make perfect sense by SJs.

    Thats why I tend to avoid their presence when I want to have fun. There are people on this world who actually can understand me without me needing to explain everything.

    I have learnt to develop a very methodical and analytical approach to do things, largely influenced by my education in University. Still I havent managed to think like that too, my mind's still an abstract mess when it comes to thinking about things. That's why I like written conversations, cause then I have time to check my own thoughts for consistency, in verbal conversation I most often firstly recognize I am talking bullshit, the moment after I've said it.

    Working with people demanding from me to make sense every second is very straining and drains a lot of my energy. Still I understand that it is ncessary. There are SJs who are different, like my ESTJ boss who deeply values my ideas and encourages me to elaborate and to think about them openly and while I am in the room with her. She understood that I just do things differently and she has learnt to respect that to be rewarded with the answer he was looking for. I deeply appreciate her doing that for me.

    I think the majority of my colleagues think that I am an idiot and I cant say they are really wrong about that. Yet my responsibilities in the company keep growing and I am often consulted for my technological expertise and ideas around future developments, I feel that my superiors respect me and see potential in me. I hope I'll maintain to operate stable in this business world and to keep up the fascade of a phillistine life. I am quite convinced tho, at some point in my life, I'll blow it again and do something differently .
    a lot of this has to do with being a Pe dom (Ne or Se) as opposed to specifically being an N thing. Ne and Se function by interacting with live data. you have a naturally tendency to talk and then think because you analyze and gather information in an active, in-the-moment sort of way. I have the same struggle on the opposite struggle. since I am Pi inferior (which gathers information in a more research/studying/academic sort of way), studying business can be a pain in the ass sometimes (although I think once I'm able to start, this will become much easier). lately I've been thinking "I'm an N dom, aren't all these theoretical concepts supposed to be easy for me to grasp?" but it's because Pe (Ne in both your case and mine) sucks at passive learning like reading, listening and looking up things online.
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  6. #36
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Thats not true, think here's a difference between enfp and entp.

    You'ld find in me the most disciplined intense reader in the world. The majority of my work hours i skim thru wikipedia, robot miniature engineering and astronomics articles. I am always very good informed because I read like hell. I only rarely read books with love stories or criminal stories, those bore me.

    I dont read very methodically, I tend to skim chaotically thru a text. But I read very precisely and try to understand what the author wanted to say, which sometimes can be done with only one single word that was different.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #37
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

    I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

    But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.

  8. #38
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Thats not true, think here's a difference between enfp and entp.

    You'ld find in me the most disciplined intense reader in the world. The majority of my work hours i skim thru wikipedia, robot miniature engineering and astronomics articles. I am always very good informed because I read like hell. I only rarely read books with love stories or criminal stories, those bore me.

    I dont read very methodically, I tend to skim chaotically thru a text. But I read very precisely and try to understand what the author wanted to say, which sometimes can be done with only one single word that was different.
    perhaps I spoke too certainly, my apologies
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  9. #39
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?

    I have noticed one ENFP on here change her perspective on SJs. So somebody's listening.

    But for the rest of the self proclaimed N types- I think SJ is a catch all for people who irritate them.
    I can't speak for everyone else, but apart from SJs, types likely to annoy me include SPs, NFJs and sometimes NTPs. in fact, the 2 types that annoy me the most are ENFJ and ESTP. I admit most SJs I know IRL annoy the bujesus out of me, but I'm really here to understand them better and have found a lot of the replies from SJs to be helpful with this.
    PS: to be a little more specific my opinion of SJs
    - SJs in authority positions bother me, but this has more to do with the fact that they are authority figures and I'm an entrepreneural ENFP 7w8.
    - STJs bother me in academic and professional settings, but they're fine outside of work and I'm surprised how much we actually agree on things. they're also wonderful if you're in a position of authority over them, but at age 19 this doesn't happen to me so often
    - ESFJ I frankly cannot stand lol
    - ISFJs can be absolutely wonderful as close friends, but sometimes they can be overly passive an schmoozing and both these tendencies annoy me.
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  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    obviously, anyone who knows about MBTI knows that all SJs are not rigid, closed minded bureaucrats. what is different about them than say, ENTPs, is that it takes more energy to process new ideas and information. an SJ who is confronted with lots of change and new information is like "whoa! slow down, I need time to process this!"
    That's part of it. Hard data has to be examined and compared to what has been previously validated, in order to make sure it matches up. This takes time. SJs don't necessarily trust change and have to manage the risk, whereas NPs thrive on change and more typically "throw themselves on the currents."

    NPs can completely change vast amounts of previously known information in effortlessly and in seconds, but Si is sort of a "foundation" type of function. for ENTPs, changing information is as easy as driving and making a left turn. for an SJ, changing information is like remodeling a house. you need to rework things from the foundation and make sure everything is still sturdy and solid. for example, an ISTJ needs a lot of time alone to process, except and work new information into the basic foundation of their life and their beliefs.
    yes. This is why they make great actuaries/accountants and engineers, etc.

    so, coming back to my point, close mindedness in SJs comes for the same reason that avoiding work does for NPs, laziness. SJs become closed minded and bureaucratic when they don't take the time to consider the new information and except that some new information may potentially better. as about 45% of the population is SJ and a large percentage of people are lazy, it's no surprise that there is a lot of overlap, hence, a lot of rigid SJs. this leads people to make the generalization that being an SJs are naturally close minded, but correlation doesn't equal causation. anyway, just a theory, feel free to make a counterpoint
    I would agree that unwillingness to invest energy at someone else's expense is one reason why some SJs might dig in. I think it is reasonable to expect an SJ type to need some time to explore data and make sure it's solid; so usually if I have an issue with one, it's because I feel that the option was never seriously considered in the first place because it was threatening or inconvenient to them in some way, not because they needed time to process. (I've had a lot of experience, to my detriment, in that area... although there are those who rose to the occasion and diligently plowed through things.) The processing time is necessary, though; and the more concrete and quantifiable the data, the better. No loose/abstract connections.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I enjoy different perspectives. I'm an SJ. Oxymoron?
    You seem more flexible than many I've known. Typically, even with the flexible SJs I've known, there is a period of resistance where a new idea that contrasts with their prior held values is shoved back against... and then, if it doesn't just vanish, they'll start to consider it and perhaps change course if there's enough good information to warrant it. I've seen minds change even on things that ran completely counter to their prior ideas... but only if they get the right information and only if they have the time they need to vet it.

    EDIT: more comments from the SJ's... we other types need to shut up a bit.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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