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  1. #21
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I stated in both in the title and the original post that this is a theory, which by it's very nature makes it the opposite of an assumption as it is tentative, open to change and specifically looking for counter arguments and contrary information. as such, feel free to disagree and post your thoughts when you get back from work
    Fair enough.

    I would like to say in retrospect that my initial post wasn't really called for and was in fact kind of rude. Sorry.

    Anywho, off work and snug as a bug in my apartment, so I'll post my thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    obviously, anyone who knows about MBTI knows that all SJs are not rigid, closed minded bureaucrats. what is different about them than say, ENTPs, is that it takes more energy to process new ideas and information. an SJ who is confronted with lots of change and new information is like "whoa! slow down, I need time to process this!"
    I would say this is true for the most part but only of how we look at things. I can't of course speak for every SJ, or even other ISFJs, but for me when I get what is often dubiously referred to as "new information" on this forum, it takes me a while to digest as I have to compare it to all other similar bits of information and check for any inconsistencies.

    Which, unfortunately, is a tiring process.

    It should be noted though that so long as I'm already familiar with the subject at hand, processing new information (whatever that may entail) is actually pretty quick. I suppose though this is because I've already formed an opinion on it (and more importantly why I've formed an opinion on it) and as such I can make a decision about it pretty quickly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    NPs can completely change vast amounts of previously known information in effortlessly and in seconds
    I can't help but feel like this is a naked assertion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    , but Si is sort of a "foundation" type of function

    This seems accurate, speaking strictly for myself of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    for ENTPs, changing information is as easy as driving and making a left turn.
    Not sure how accurate this is but...ok, if you say so

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    for an SJ, changing information is like remodeling a house. you need to rework things from the foundation and make sure everything is still sturdy and solid. for example, an ISTJ needs a lot of time alone to process, except and work new information into the basic foundation of their life and their beliefs.
    I think you're overstating the amount of work and energy needed for an SJ (an ISTJ in this example) to adapt or assimilate. The first part of your paragraph I can agree with but the 2nd part is overblown. I don't reexamine my worldview if, for instance, the deli I like to eat from were to stop making a soup or sandwich that I like. I'd be depressed, sure, because my routine would be jarred but adjustment would be minimal.

    Now...force me to deal with something that addresses my core values, and you might have a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    so, coming back to my point, close mindedness in SJs comes for the same reason that avoiding work does for NPs, laziness.
    Wow. I wonder how many NPs love being told that they're work avoidant because they're lazy. Seriously, what an almost SJ-like thing to say

    And SJs won't change their minds because they're lazy? Really? Seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    SJs become closed minded and bureaucratic when they don't take the time to consider the new information and except that some new information may potentially better.
    SJs are no more closed minded than anyone else in this respect. I didn't realize that zealotry, fanaticism, and blinding following dogma were exclusively related to Si

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    as about 45% of the population is SJ and a large percentage of people are lazy, it's no surprise that there is a lot of overlap, hence, a lot of rigid SJs. this leads people to make the generalization that being an SJs are naturally close minded, but correlation doesn't equal causation.
    I'm glad you at least added that last caveat to this paragraph otherwise I was going to have to brain you with a digital dough-roller.

    Going by the logic that

    A) A lot of people are lazy
    B) A lot of people are SJs
    C) Therefore, SJs are lazy

    is really shoddy thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    anyway, just a theory, feel free to make a counterpoint
    I think what people often perceive as "closed-mindedness" from me, being an Si-dom, is often a misunderstanding of a desire for familiarity and consistency.

    I define familiarity is being just how acquainted with and knowledgeable of a subject/person/place/thing I am. The more familiar with it I am, the better I can understand it and the better I can understand it the more I can account for and make predictions and determinations about this person/place/or thing.

    Consistency though is the big one for me and something I think a lot of people misunderstand the most. If I'm given a choice between two paths to take, Path A being a path that's quicker but doesn't always provide the best results and Path B which is harder but consistency provides results... 99 out of 100 times I'll take Path B. Why? I'll take Path B the vast majority of the time because I -know- that I'm very very likely to get what I need and it's that consistency that provides me a great deal of psychological comfort.

    Now it's very likely a great many SJs can and are lazy (present company included). Sloth unfortunately afflicts every human being regardless of shape/size/age/type/whatever. But I think it imply hat a resistance to change is simple because we're not willing to put our shoulders into it is disingenuous.

    Often times when I've been presented a new idea or method of doing things...the reasons I reject have nothing to do with a lack of desire to shake up my routine. It's because your new idea sucks. Suggestions that I'm just half-assing the thinking process, while possibly true in some instances, is just more or less an ad homien attack. Probably just indignation at my refusal to concede your brilliance

    Here's the thing about a lot of people that drive me up the wall: They start at Point A and want to get to Point D....but often fail to realize that it's actually important to stop at Points B & C along the way, for a variety of different reasons.

    If I have a stern judgement or opinion on something and you genuinely feel that your way is better, then the way you're going to change my mind is by methodically overturning my judgements, explaining to me why I'm wrong, and patiently addressing and resolving my objections. Do that...and if I have any shred of intellectual honesty, I'll change my mind.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Because they structure, I think. Pillars of society and all that. Plus, ISJs frequently compare new data to their inner perception of what things are in a more conscious way; INJs do this too, I suppose, but they seem more open-minded because Ni has an abstract, more idiosyncratic nature. I think.

  3. #23
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Fair enough.

    I would like to say in retrospect that my initial post wasn't really called for and was in fact kind of rude. Sorry.

    Anywho, off work and snug as a bug in my apartment, so I'll post my thoughts.



    I would say this is true for the most part but only of how we look at things. I can't of course speak for every SJ, or even other ISFJs, but for me when I get what is often dubiously referred to as "new information" on this forum, it takes me a while to digest as I have to compare it to all other similar bits of information and check for any inconsistencies.

    Which, unfortunately, is a tiring process.

    It should be noted though that so long as I'm already familiar with the subject at hand, processing new information (whatever that may entail) is actually pretty quick. I suppose though this is because I've already formed an opinion on it (and more importantly why I've formed an opinion on it) and as such I can make a decision about it pretty quickly.




    I can't help but feel like this is a naked assertion




    This seems accurate, speaking strictly for myself of course.


    Not sure how accurate this is but...ok, if you say so



    I think you're overstating the amount of work and energy needed for an SJ (an ISTJ in this example) to adapt or assimilate. The first part of your paragraph I can agree with but the 2nd part is overblown. I don't reexamine my worldview if, for instance, the deli I like to eat from were to stop making a soup or sandwich that I like. I'd be depressed, sure, because my routine would be jarred but adjustment would be minimal.

    Now...force me to deal with something that addresses my core values, and you might have a point.



    Wow. I wonder how many NPs love being told that they're work avoidant because they're lazy. Seriously, what an almost SJ-like thing to say

    And SJs won't change their minds because they're lazy? Really? Seriously?



    SJs are no more closed minded than anyone else in this respect. I didn't realize that zealotry, fanaticism, and blinding following dogma were exclusively related to Si



    I'm glad you at least added that last caveat to this paragraph otherwise I was going to have to brain you with a digital dough-roller.

    Going by the logic that

    A) A lot of people are lazy
    B) A lot of people are SJs
    C) Therefore, SJs are lazy

    is really shoddy thinking.



    I think what people often perceive as "closed-mindedness" from me, being an Si-dom, is often a misunderstanding of a desire for familiarity and consistency.

    I define familiarity is being just how acquainted with and knowledgeable of a subject/person/place/thing I am. The more familiar with it I am, the better I can understand it and the better I can understand it the more I can account for and make predictions and determinations about this person/place/or thing.

    Consistency though is the big one for me and something I think a lot of people misunderstand the most. If I'm given a choice between two paths to take, Path A being a path that's quicker but doesn't always provide the best results and Path B which is harder but consistency provides results... 99 out of 100 times I'll take Path B. Why? I'll take Path B the vast majority of the time because I -know- that I'm very very likely to get what I need and it's that consistency that provides me a great deal of psychological comfort.

    Now it's very likely a great many SJs can and are lazy (present company included). Sloth unfortunately afflicts every human being regardless of shape/size/age/type/whatever. But I think it imply hat a resistance to change is simple because we're not willing to put our shoulders into it is disingenuous.

    Often times when I've been presented a new idea or method of doing things...the reasons I reject have nothing to do with a lack of desire to shake up my routine. It's because your new idea sucks. Suggestions that I'm just half-assing the thinking process, while possibly true in some instances, is just more or less an ad homien attack. Probably just indignation at my refusal to concede your brilliance

    Here's the thing about a lot of people that drive me up the wall: They start at Point A and want to get to Point D....but often fail to realize that it's actually important to stop at Points B & C along the way, for a variety of different reasons.

    If I have a stern judgement or opinion on something and you genuinely feel that your way is better, then the way you're going to change my mind is by methodically overturning my judgements, explaining to me why I'm wrong, and patiently addressing and resolving my objections. Do that...and if I have any shred of intellectual honesty, I'll change my mind.
    you weren't rude, you just got the wrong impression (initially) from my post, but you were very polite about it
    the house example was meant for more controversial information (for instance, an ISFJ conservative christian processing new data on human evolution or something) but even then, I took it too an extreme to illustrate a point, perhaps I should have clarified this better
    unfortunately, all the evidence on ENPs I have is more acedotal, but all the ENPs I know IRL at least can spin on a dime and change up things in minutes or even seconds (the flip side is when things don't change, we're not, naturally at least, the best with routine and consistancy)
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    you weren't rude, you just got the wrong impression (initially) from my post, but you were very polite about it
    the house example was meant for more controversial information (for instance, an ISFJ conservative christian processing new data on human evolution or something) but even then, I took it too an extreme to illustrate a point, perhaps I should have clarified this better
    unfortunately, all the evidence on ENPs I have is more acedotal, but all the ENPs I know IRL at least can spin on a dime and change up things in minutes or even seconds (the flip side is when things don't change, we're not, naturally at least, the best with routine and consistancy)
    As ENPs we can adjust or learn very quickly and improvise, but it leaves large holes where, perhaps, facts should be. We excel at tying disparate things together, coming up with possibilities, and bullshitting on the spot. It's very much a survival strength. On the other hand, though, ISJs collect facts. Facts are kind of important. Theory with no facts is actually a pretty serious problem.

    I know an ISFJ who refuses to get into major debates unless he has access to factual information - he regards all else as opinion, and he doesn't think you can necessarily change someone's opinion, so he waits for the facts.

    ENPs and ISJs could actually very well supplement each others strengths and weaknesses if they appreciated that basically we each have what the other lacks. It's also the theory behind the tert/inf functions ideally making a person more balanced.

  5. #25
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    you weren't rude, you just got the wrong impression (initially) from my post, but you were very polite about it
    You're right, I was, and I apologize for that

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the house example was meant for more controversial information (for instance, an ISFJ conservative christian processing new data on human evolution or something) but even then, I took it too an extreme to illustrate a point, perhaps I should have clarified this better
    Actually the method you used is one that is often used by a lot people and I have found can be very useful. That being said, yah, you should have clarified that

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    unfortunately, all the evidence on ENPs I have is more acedotal, but all the ENPs I know IRL at least can spin on a dime and change up things in minutes or even seconds (the flip side is when things don't change, we're not, naturally at least, the best with routine and consistancy)
    As one who relies heavily on personal experience to draw conclusions himself, I really can't fault you for your reasoning. It's just mine seems to have drawn different results. My ENFP father gets overwhelmed a lot at work and is horrible at keeping himself organized. He definitely handles the drastic shifts much better than I do but I often feel his priorities aren't what they should be and often ends up dropping balls and making mistakes that I personally feel are easily avoidable.

    But then, I'm an ISJ and he's an ENP, so I imagine this is hardly a unique situation
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  6. #26
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    I disagree with the OP, because that's not how SJs process new information. Speaking as an ESTJ, if you give me a new worldview, and enough evidence from trustworthy sources, I may be surprised by the worldview, but I will believe you immediately. Honestly, if all SJs are like me, they process new information as quickly as you ENxPs can.

    I've done a lot of talking with various people on the forum (mostly with Fidelia) about this, and we have come to the conclusion that the types that need the most time to process new information are the Ni types - e.g. INFJs. And the way THEY process new information is identical to the metaphor that you incorrectly attributed to SJs. Si is not a house that you have to tear down and rebuild - Si is a filing cabinet filled with individual pieces of information that don't necessarily link to one another. If you're an SJ, you don't have to rip apart your worldview if you learn a bizarre new piece of information that contradicts something you learned before. All you do is remove that file from your filing cabinet and replace it. (Exception to this: moral issues, like Tinker said. But I would argue that all types have morality systems that they would have to tear down if one part was proven false. Even the NTs.)

    Now, for my theory as to why SJs are perceived as closed-minded: they usually follow tried-and-true methods, and require a lot of information in order to change to something new, because they don't like taking risks. People don't realize, when an SJ says "How could that possibly be better than the usual method?", that they would actually accept an answer, and all they need is a convincing reply in order to change their minds. Their initial cynicism makes people think that they will never listen to them, even though they've never really tried to make them listen. They've given up too early.
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  7. #27
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    OP, you forget to realize that SJs and NPs have the same S and N functions. The order is reversed, but the ingredients are the same. And especially when you're comparing an INTP with tertiary Si with an ESTJ with tertiary Ne, the fast assimilator/slow assimilator labels get dubious.

    If anything, it's simply Introverts who need to step back and reflect on what the input they've received, whereas Extroverts are by nature, more fast-paced.

    I also notice that Thinkers are more fast-paced than Feelers.

    J's tend to be quicker to action (decisions) than P's.

    Add that all up, and observe whether ESTJs seem to move along more quickly with the times than INFPs. In my own observation, this is true - the ESTJs are the movers and shakers implementing new ideas brought forth (if supported by favorable data).

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    When someone like an ISTJ habitually responds to every new idea, no matter how benign, with skepticism, then this is just a learned response pattern. And yes it does drive other people crazy, kind of like if I was always cracking my knuckles in your presence until you were finally tempted to break my fingers.

    Yes, blaming the victim of skepticism or whatever is a common social game these days. But we can't always be in a mood to play along with the ISTJ's control games. Eventually, they have an effect not unlike Chinese water torture.
    When you come across a new idea, it only makes sense to scrutinize it, to see if it's really viable, effective, and more beneficial to implement than costly. Imagine if everyone agreed with any half-baked idea - not only would nothing get done, there would be absolute chaos.

    It's absolutely necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff, and ISTJs happen to be rather good at it. The only problem is, what I consider "wheat" might differ from their perception. Same standards, different goals.
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  8. #28
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Elfboy, why do you want to like us?

    For the record, I'm an SJ and even I don't understand what's going on around me.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Si and Ni I think are similar in this respect, in a dominant position especially; once an introverted perception is honed in on and judgment made accordingly, then it'll take a while to revamp that entire worldview if new info comes to the surface. I know it's been discussed on this forum in many Ni threads that it can take a while to reallign internal worlds. Basically I think this applies to all IxxJ's - IxxJ's aren't known for being good at on-the-fly processing and sudden shifts in worldviews -- assuming they've concluded something. And the 'needing processing time' thing applies to pretty much every introvert - it just might be triggered by different things.
    My exact thoughts....Introverted functions are rigid by nature, especially when it's your dominant. Around here we like to discuss the starting point of Si and Ni and assume that's where it stops, when in fact it doesn't. It's a process that is colored by the complimenting functions as well. An SJ and an NJ can arrive at the same place in terms of view, they're just different paths.

  10. #30
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Si and Ni I think are similar in this respect, in a dominant position especially; once an introverted perception is honed in on and judgment made accordingly, then it'll take a while to revamp that entire worldview if new info comes to the surface. I know it's been discussed on this forum in many Ni threads that it can take a while to reallign internal worlds. Basically I think this applies to all IxxJ's - IxxJ's aren't known for being good at on-the-fly processing and sudden shifts in worldviews -- assuming they've concluded something. And the 'needing processing time' thing applies to pretty much every introvert - it just might be triggered by different things.
    Well, I think the reason I described it as "uninterested" was because I have found that for many SJ's, once I, and therefore, the new information, is gone away, therefore, it is ALL gone. They never think of it again, and no matter how many times you remind them of it, they don't integrate it. I have the idea that the ISTJ's Marmie speaks of somehow were integrated during the social cycle in teen-hood lol.....or their parents passed it along. Basically, people seem to do what they NEED to do...... and SJ's don't need to change their beliefs or ideas. So be it........ there's something very serene in that. Why does it seem ok for a P to change all-over-the-place, but not for a J to remain the same? All in all, nothing is completely true anyway. It takes a J and a P to make a world.

    Why don't you SJ's stick up for yourselves?! lmfao ISTP's follow tried-and-true methods a lot of times too, but the difference is, if someone started a thread like this on us, we would tell 'em to stick it up their a** and spin lol..... ;o)
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