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  1. #101
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    I've always had an insatiable curiousity about different people, the more different the better. You couldn't pry me off of any foreign exchange student, or person who came from a completely different upbringing of some kind than me.

    This was especially strong in me while very young, late teens early twenties, wanting to meet a diverse cross-section of people and experiencing all of these new things, and living in different situations, like experiencing all kinds of crazy and interesting things.

    Do you relate to that AT ALL?

  2. #102
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    My high school experience involved knowing and talking to people from various social groups and backgrounds, from living in upper-middle class houses and having a brand new car their parents bought them, to high school dropouts whose parents lived in single-wide trailers in gravel parking lots and received welfare.

    While I don't like stupid or obnoxious people, it's true, I'm pretty accepting of people, and I've noticed that other ENFPs tend to say similar things, about being able to adjust, or about being accepting or tolerant to a degree.

    Your insistence on "class" seems really rigid to me for an ExFP, ENFP or ESFP, especially for one as young as yourself.

    Of course your Fi could just have very particular values, but like dude, I dunno.
    they're really not as rigid as they appear, I just happen to speak using a lot of Te. if I am really a 3w4, this aspect would also be explained a little better.
    PS: I think the underlying problem is that my reasons behind creating certain threads are much more complicated than the actual thread itself, that combined with the controversiality of most of my opinions leads most people be like "What do you mean by that Elfboy?". it gets even worse because I seem to explain things in a way that either confuses people more or gives an overly simplistic representation of my opinion which is usually misleading, so the thread continues to move away from it's original context and moves to talking about Elfboy, what he really thinks and how he could possibly think what he does. this gives the impression that I am
    - extremely self congratulatory
    - ignorant
    - possibly rigid
    - insecure
    - judgemental
    when really it stems from having complicated and controversial views that I seem to be unable to articulate correctly
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  3. #103
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I've always had an insatiable curiousity about different people, the more different the better. You couldn't pry me off of any foreign exchange student, or person who came from a completely different upbringing of some kind than me.

    This was especially strong in me while very young, late teens early twenties, wanting to meet a diverse cross-section of people and experiencing all of these new things, and living in different situations, like experiencing all kinds of crazy and interesting things.

    Do you relate to that AT ALL?
    I relate to about 90% of it actually, further supporting the idea that I am not communicating my views properly.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    they're really not as rigid as they appear, I just happen to speak using a lot of Te. if I am really a 3w4, this aspect would also be explained a little better.
    PS: I think the underlying problem is that my reasons behind creating certain threads are much more complicated than the actual thread itself, that combined with the controversiality of most of my opinions leads most people be like "What do you mean by that Elfboy?". it gets even worse because I seem to explain things in a way that either confuses people more or gives an overly simplistic representation of my opinion which is usually misleading, so the thread continues to move away from it's original context and moves to talking about Elfboy, what he really thinks and how he could possibly think what he does. this gives the impression that I am
    - extremely self congratulatory
    - ignorant
    - possibly rigid
    - insecure
    - judgemental
    when really it stems from having complicated and controversial views that I seem to be unable to articulate correctly
    You seem like an elitist 4. I also don't think this has jack shit to do with Te.

  5. #105
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You seem like an elitist 4. I also don't think this has jack shit to do with Te.
    not impossible
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  6. #106
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    So far, pretty much believe most of you fu**s are either sociopaths or messed-up people. Sorry to say it, but i will never pretend. I will always tell the truth, no matter what the cost. It's the only way I can hold onto myself and guess what? ME is more important than you can ever be. I will give you this: you are here, and that is good enough. I like the fact that you are here. I find it interesting.
    Not speaking for everyone else here, but I was just trying to make a point. The post of yours that I replied to, I replied to because it made me sad, especially in light of the fact that you've been nice to me and you've posted on my thread. So I wanted to defend myself and my SJ kin - and now I'm guessing that I am now one of the sociopaths/messed-up people you just vented at. But the best way to respond to that is to be open-minded and accepting anyway, and keep in mind that you've been nice before and judge you for that instead.

    See what I did just there?

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Not all SJs are closed minded, but if you're closed minded.... you're probably an SJ (or an ENTJ). That's fair enough right everyone, even SJs?
    I hope you're being sarcastic.
    But yeah there's tons of creative open-minded SJs too..... Martha Stewart, Sinatra, etc (alright that took me too long to come up with). Most ESFJs I know are open-minded about certain things, and definitely not rigid. An SJ with a lot of extroverted sensing will usually be open to experience... etc.
    I don't like the tendency of people on this forum to go "Yeah, there are some nice/creative/open-minded SJs in the world, but most of them aren't." Everyone can be closed-minded!! The most closed-minded people I know are NOT SJs, but are types that are not stereotyped as being closed-minded, e.g. INTJs and ENFPs!

    Okay, I've dealt with people venting at me for years on this forum, so it's time for me to vent back.

    One of the main reasons why I'm on this forum at all is to help people understand my type. And I've seen people on this forum write things along the lines of "EJCC is a good example of a well-adjusted ESTJ, which makes her an exception to the rule, because most ESTJs are dictatorial assholes who never listen to an opposing opinion." And that just kills me. I am not the exception to a general rule! Consider all the SJs on this forum! Would you consider them to be closed-minded? I certainly wouldn't.

    The people who REALLY strike me as closed-minded here are the people who hate on SJs. This includes many of the people on this thread. And they are - guess what? - SPs, NTs and NFs. There are a LOT of NTs on this forum who are ridiculously closed-minded in that regard. And even though you'd think that those hyper-rational NTs would want to understand what they think is inferior/irrational/whatever, they simply don't care enough, which is why you hardly ever see them in the SJ Guardhouse, unless it's in a thread like this. So much for the eternal quest for knowledge that they care so much about.

    And as I've said earlier in the thread, if you look for SJs by looking for traditionalists, you might be missing a lot of people who break your stereotypes, and mistyping traditionalists of other types as being SJ. You would mistype several INFJ friends of mine as being ISFJ. You would probably mistype me as being ENFP, and mistype many of the SJs on this forum as being ISTP, INTJ, etc. This point has already been made to death, and no one has responded to it, except for Marm and shortnsweet, but they're only two people and so many other people are involved.

    So many good points, from them and others, have been comparatively ignored in favor of this ridiculous character debate that hasn't been going anywhere. So let's get back on task, shall we?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #107
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I hope you're being sarcastic.
    Nope, just making generalizations. For example, would you really say that the average ESFP isn't any more open-minded and non-rigid than the average ISTJ?

    That's just an obvious trend, nothing that has to be interpreted in a black-and-white way (even if a lot do), it's not saying all ESFPs are more open-minded than ISTJs, or even most.

    And the posters that do make black-and-white comments about SJs, if it's not a joke, sure, they're being typist.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't like the tendency of people on this forum to go "Yeah, there are some nice/creative/open-minded SJs in the world, but most of them aren't." Everyone can be closed-minded!! The most closed-minded people I know are NOT SJs, but are types that are not stereotyped as being closed-minded, e.g. INTJs and ENFPs!

    Okay, I've dealt with people venting at me for years on this forum, so it's time for me to vent back.

    One of the main reasons why I'm on this forum at all is to help people understand my type. And I've seen people on this forum write things along the lines of "EJCC is a good example of a well-adjusted ESTJ, which makes her an exception to the rule, because most ESTJs are dictatorial assholes who never listen to an opposing opinion." And that just kills me. I am not the exception to a general rule! Consider all the SJs on this forum! Would you consider them to be closed-minded? I certainly wouldn't.

    The people who REALLY strike me as closed-minded here are the people who hate on SJs. This includes many of the people on this thread. And they are - guess what? - SPs, NTs and NFs. There are a LOT of NTs on this forum who are ridiculously closed-minded in that regard. And even though you'd think that those hyper-rational NTs would want to understand what they think is inferior/irrational/whatever, they simply don't care enough, which is why you hardly ever see them in the SJ Guardhouse, unless it's in a thread like this. So much for the eternal quest for knowledge that they care so much about.

    And as I've said earlier in the thread, if you look for SJs by looking for traditionalists, you might be missing a lot of people who break your stereotypes, and mistyping traditionalists of other types as being SJ. You would mistype several INFJ friends of mine as being ISFJ. You would probably mistype me as being ENFP, and mistype many of the SJs on this forum as being ISTP, INTJ, etc. This point has already been made to death, and no one has responded to it, except for Marm and shortnsweet, but they're only two people and so many other people are involved.

    So many good points, from them and others, have been comparatively ignored in favor of this ridiculous character debate that hasn't been going anywhere. So let's get back on task, shall we?
    Agreed.

  8. #108
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Nope, just making generalizations. For example, would you really say that the average ESFP isn't any more open-minded and non-rigid than the average ISTJ?
    Probably not; you're right. But I would say that the average INTJ or INFJ is more closed-minded than the average ISTJ, if only because ISTJs are more easily convinced by concrete fact. With a lot of Ns, you get more resistance to contrary information, because they deal so much more with general concepts than small individual facts. It's easier to buy a new cog to replace an old one, when the old cog isn't a key part in a huge intuitive machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Agreed.
    Yay! Excellent.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  9. #109
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    nope, just making generalizations. For example, would you really say that the average ESFP isn't any more open-minded and non-rigid than the average ISTJ?
    That's just an obvious trend, nothing that has to be interpreted in a black-and-white way (even if a lot do), it's not saying all ESFPs are more open-minded than ISTJS, or even most.
    And the posters that do make black-and-white comments about SJs, if it's not a joke, sure, they're being typist
    bingo! this is part of what the OP was getting at. ENTPs and ENFPs don't fall into close minded thought patterns when lazy, SJs often do, but SJs that are balanced and are willing to take the mental energy to consider new contrary to what they already think are no more closed minded than other cognitively balanced people.
    PS: however, ENTPs can ENFPs can display closed minded tendencies under high levels of stress
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    bingo! this is part of what the OP was getting at. ENTPs and ENFPs don't fall into close minded thought patterns when lazy, SJs often do, but SJs that are balanced and are willing to take the mental energy to consider new contrary to what they already think are no more closed minded than other cognitively balanced people.
    PS: however, ENTPs can ENFPs can display closed minded tendencies under high levels of stress
    Yeah but you're skipping over all of those self-congratulatory closed-minded NTJs, too.

    You can't just contrast ENFP and ISTJ. That's not objective or fair. It's not even about being "nice" or "tolerant"...it's not even fucking logical.

    Did you see the ISTP just call us all sociopaths? Have you not missed how closed minded you can be? The stuff you've said in this thread I commented on was pretty outrageously closed-minded.

    Si does have a particular inflexibility, but so does Ni in a way, as someone has already pointed out. Except in Ni doms we just call it "being delusional."

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