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  1. #1
    Member The Machine Stops's Avatar
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    Default Trusting intuition

    When you're in a relationship with an intuitive type, does that ever create a conflict for you?

    "Do you know how to get there?"
    "Absolutly."
    "How? Where is the map?"
    "A map? I have a nose, what do I need a map for!"

    It does for me. She needs data, I don't have data, I have a feeling, and that usually turns out right, but hardly makes her feel better until it turns out right.

  2. #2
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Well I wouldnt know if I was to trust an Intuitor on roadmap topics, I think for this things you really should consult a map.

    Still I know your problems, tho I think it is a problem that concerns more primary intuitive types. My boss lately asked me about the topic of electrical mobility and future developments in that field. She asked me how much of our work we should dedicate that topic and how much can be earned in thze field. I am convinced that the topic is part of a wider spread developing german conciensce for renewable energy sources, a modern way of living and a technologized future but I dont think that e-mobility will be there too fast and I dont think people will abandon the combustion engine over night.

    Ok that was no art so far, but then she asked me why I am so convincved that our generation will be intrested in all sorts of innovative ways to move around on the world and in a thing like e-mobility aswell. Well I cant, I am guessing, like I am often. And this is a thing I often come in troubles with.

    I had to learn over the last years that I just cant always speak my mind like I please, but instead that I have to sometimes collect proof first aswell. My hunches are often great and I have an intense understanding to within minutes understand how a complex system operates as long as it is logical to some extent, but speaking properly with people who demand some proof for your facts, I had to learn.

    Germany is a very counter-intuitive country and I like that sometimes, because they dont do so many crazy things like other countries to easily. They need time to convince themselves of things, tho the will to innovation always seems to be embedded on all levels no matter how conservative they are. I am known in my company for my ability to fix things or to come up with ideas how to fix things. Tho everybody knows I am a very crazy idea-generator, people trust me cause I build myself a trustable image. They know that I will look at a matter from different perspectives before I judge it. I even learnt to become a bit J for my work and sometimes judge things quickly, because they need to. It is important that people trust you first before you show them how you see the world.

    I generally avoid people and only those who are intrested in me, I let in. If a sensorish guy blocks out my ideas kinda quickly and says I am flighty not living in the here and now, I quickly loosen this contact. So it's important for me to surround myself with people who help me, I am egoistic like that.

    I can give yopu little advice on your gf situation, but the relationship I had with an ISFJ didnt play out at all. We had such an intensive language barrier that we never grew happy. It's totally different with an intuitive partner and tho I am not saying every N needs a N, I am at least convinbced that a primary insane N better needs a N partner, if N is a thing he values.

    Maybe it would help if you could give some concrete examples of misunderstandings between you and your girlfriend. Some which are a bit deeper and not too superficial like map problems. Maybe then we can see what your real problem is here
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #3
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    I'm an INFJ in a committed relationship with an ISTP. This comes up really, really often for us, obviously!

    He trusts my intuition a lot more than I give him credit for, but, along the way, I have to put up with a lot of wry remarks about how little sense it makes until proven correct. :P On the flip side, his know-how skills in the physical world seem almost unparalleled to me, and after a couple of years of razzing him, I've come to trust his instincts about how something will work (or not work) nearly wholeheartedly.

    The neverending quest for more data, though, tends to yank me to the mundane surface of life more than I can really tolerate, and tends to feel relentlessly critical to me. When I know something will work, I'm totally sure. I've already noodled the details, and to have to walk someone else through the process again is so boring to me, it's painful. And then, of course, there are the instances that I can SEE how something going to end up in my mind's eye (for instance, the brilliant color of paint in a small space), but can't really just project that on the wall for him to see. It's frustrating, and it requires some degree of trust from him. ;oP
    I think I think more than you think I think.

  4. #4
    Member The Machine Stops's Avatar
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    The primary roadblock for us is the concept of change and growth. It's easy for me to adapt, to adopt a new viewpoint. I grow readily, but she is highly rigid, and more and more, seemingly incapable of it.

    For instance, her behavoir, her views, her attitudes and values show me that she is constructing a prison for herself. Isolating herself, blaming other people for her failures. If she doesn't make it in an interview, it's the fault of the system. Having blamed the system she now absolves herself from ever having to apply for another job in that field again. She has a Phd in Literature and works as a nanny, for a family member. Her prison is shrinking.

    I am very good with dynamics such as these. They appear to me readily, but I cannot convince her that my "hunch" has any validity. The system is to blame. This person is to blame. That is to blame, but not her own view. Abstract concepts are meaningless, I cannot convince her that if she remains on the path she is taking, that the outcome will be as I say. The path that I see is merely fiction in my head, not something real. Or that her rigidity makes me feel like this relationship has turned into a one way street. There is a language barrier there, there is a barrier of perception. When I actually do break through to her, and she does listen to me, then she doesn't understand me. I speak in concepts, in abstracts, in metaphors, in philosophies, encompassing our relationship, and none of these have a value to her as concrete data. I ask if it is about faith, about trust, but I am told it's not, that we can both be right. But that I see as just another deflection for her to not move an inch from her position.

    I'm not giving up on this relationship. I want to break through to her, and then be able to give her something that she can make sense of, that is useful to her, that she understands and can apply. This was pretty much what I was thinking of when I wrote that first post.

  5. #5
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    The amount of trust I put into someone's intuition is on the same plane as anyone else's perception. The more erratic or off it is, the less likely I'm going to trust it.

  6. #6
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Hmhm, sounds indeed pretty difficult. I have become very rigid with age and given up to just hope for a situation to change; the idealist in me is long dead, dunno how much I can help you.

    Really sounds like she needs a change in perspective. If I may ask, is she older than you (asking because of the PhD) ? The troubles you describe I have with my father who is an istp. He seems to be caught in a loop like that aswell, he has no desire to take any hope from a pool of abstract hopeful ideas or different concepts to view life, no he rather sulks in depression blaming the system and it's always the same story on repeat for 30 years.

    My boss told me today that there are people who will always be intrested in change and that there are people who are happy when they are at home after work and finish work then. I dunno, maybe what your partner needs is the direct opposite from an abstract idea at the moment, maybe sensors need to sulk to be happy, I dunno. Or she would need a sensorish advice at the moment, maybe you know a person who is in a job you think your partner could like to and maybe you can bring the too together and see if it matches.

    I'll post more if I have an idea, I definitly understand your problem, cause I come from a family I suffered equally for a long time that's maybe why I am blocking your problem out a bit atm aswell
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #7
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    Hmhm, sounds indeed pretty difficult. I have become very rigid with age and given up to just hope for a situation to change; the idealist in me is long dead, dunno how much I can help you.
    You could say that you've become less rigid with age, then, since you've given up on idealistic hopes. In my life and relationships, once my pie in the sky ideals have died, they tend to leave room for realistic growth/change. For me, it's looked more like realizing that two very different personalities can co-exist peaceably without one or the other having to transform into the image of the other. I guess the outgrowth of dead ideals, for me, has been deeper respect/appreciation for the differences of the other. :muse: More live and let live, I guess.
    I think I think more than you think I think.

  8. #8
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyGrass View Post
    You could say that you've become less rigid with age, then, since you've given up on idealistic hopes. In my life and relationships, once my pie in the sky ideals have died, they tend to leave room for realistic growth/change. For me, it's looked more like realizing that two very different personalities can co-exist peaceably without one or the other having to transform into the image of the other. I guess the outgrowth of dead ideals, for me, has been deeper respect/appreciation for the differences of the other. :muse: More live and let live, I guess.
    Those are the things I love you nf's for, I could never come up with something remotly like that . I see and understand
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #9
    Member The Machine Stops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post

    Really sounds like she needs a change in perspective. If I may ask, is she older than you (asking because of the PhD) ?l
    No, we're the same age.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyGrass
    You could say that you've become less rigid with age, then, since you've given up on idealistic hopes. In my life and relationships, once my pie in the sky ideals have died, they tend to leave room for realistic growth/change. For me, it's looked more like realizing that two very different personalities can co-exist peaceably without one or the other having to transform into the image of the other. I guess the outgrowth of dead ideals, for me, has been deeper respect/appreciation for the differences of the other. :muse: More live and let live, I guess.
    I agree with you. I've come to a place, even, where I think growth and change aren't important anymore. Thanks to her. A realization that, ironically, without either of those two factors, I wouldn't have been able to reach. I had this whole insight into how, really, people are perfect as they are, and growth is simply moving from one state of (spiritual, if you will) perfection to another. I could accept her stoic traditionalism among all those qualities about her that I adore, if it wasn't for her heading towards self destruction. I mean, she will learn, once life teaches her this lesson. She'll hit that iceberg she's heading towards and she will hit rock bottom, when even I have left her, and her prison finally closes on her throat and takes the air away she needs to breath... eventually, experience will teach her... but that is really painful to see in someone you care for.

  10. #10
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You sound pretty convinced that she will fail the way she's progressing. Have you ever entertained the thought that it may just be different for some people in life and that while N-Fe types could be called masters of avoiding the painful, some people need to experience it nonetheless to see it and to change then.

    I sometimes noticed that it is a huge N arrogance to always think we know how it's done the right way, because the seemingly right way most often was only fitting for our own personalities
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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