[MBTI General] ISTJs and steamrolling?

[Caligula]

Edit: ESTJs too?

My ENFP friend has been complaining lately about my "steamrolling". Apparently sometimes when I'm excited or knowledgeable about a topic, I'll just rant out my opinions about something and not let others get a word in edgewise. Occasionally I'll just tell him outright that he's wrong about something, though I would only ever do this around someone I know well. I just feel so confident and strongly about what I'm talking about and I want to share it with others...

I don't mean to hurt his feelings but I get carried away and only realize after it's too late.
Do any other ISTJs have this problem? ESTJs? (Sometimes I wonder if I'm secretly an ESTJ...)
If so, how can I work on this?



I'm probably somewhere between ISFJ and ISTJ, but I've been leaning towards ISTJ lately and I can't picture ISFJs having this problem (stereotyping.) Also, maybe I'm just an egotistical and pretentious jerk...But I hope that isn't the case.

 

[Giggly]

Give in.

It's that simple.

You are not losing by doing so, you are winning. Because you make your ENFP happy.

 

[prplchknz]

I have this issue as well, probably not as bad as you, but still sometimes you get me started on something I'll keep going and going. And sometimes people are so blatantly wrong that I have to correct them I can't help it, it's like a really annoying itch that if I don't itch it will drive me crazy for a long time.

 

[IZthe411]

This is an TJ thing more than it is an ISTJ thing- I find myself sometimes talking with absolute confidence in a way that would make it appear that there's no other answer or perspective.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, I've seen it, and even what Izzy says in the last post. Certainty of truth, as if no other perspective exists... and if it's pervasive/extreme enough, sometimes I end up taking it personally.

I got pissed at my STJ friend last night because she can be painfully blunt. We got into an argument over a particular fact. She offered no "proof" her understanding was correct, while I was openly only 75% sure or so from my end and explained why (it was an intuitive case, going from triangulated data)... and she called me an "f*ing idiot" three or four times in a row because she was so sure she was right and I guess it frustrated her that I didn't just accept her opinion without an actual argument, when I could make a cogent circumstantial case for what I thought could be true.

She ended up being right, but my case wasn't irrational ... and I was pissed at her because when she got so adamant without evidence and starting calling me an idiot a few times over, I took that pretty personally. I'm not an idiot, even if I'm wrong sometimes... and inductive arguments always have some risk of being wrong; that's the nature of them. I hadn't made any pretenses. The inductive reasonings I had made were generally reasonable... this time they just happened to be wrong.

Anyway, she's done it before, and I've had other STJs with low-social skills insist they were right without feeling the need to "prove their case." I think once people get more adept at relating, they realize they need to put more out there rather than just assuming everyone sees what they see. I was going to say maybe it's easier for S's to forget that (since N's are supposed to more naturally recognize multiple views), but going by my experience on this forum, where I've butted heads with some NTJs in similar matters (where they weren't explaining their argument or maybe didn't even know how to), I guess it strikes TJs in general.

 

[Caligula]

@Giggly: You're completely right.

@prplchknz:
I understand the feeling. You just want to help them understand! I love your avatar btw.

@Iz: Now that I think about it, my INTJ friends do the same thing...

@Jennifer:
Ouch, I'm sorry. That seems so annoying; I would never take it to that extreme. I think when someone is calling the other person an idiot, they've already lost.
I would never take something as fact without solid evidence, though I do make the mistake of assuming everyone sees things the way I see them.

 

[IZthe411]

Yeah, I've seen it, and even what Izzy says in the last post. Certainty of truth, as if no other perspective exists... and if it's pervasive/extreme enough, sometimes I end up taking it personally.

I got pissed at my STJ friend last night because she can be painfully blunt. We got into an argument over a particular fact. She offered no "proof" her understanding was correct, while I was openly only 75% sure or so from my end and explained why (it was an intuitive case, going from triangulated data)... and she called me an "f*ing idiot" three or four times in a row because she was so sure she was right and I guess it frustrated her that I didn't just accept her opinion without an actual argument, when I could make a cogent circumstantial case for what I thought could be true.

She ended up being right, but my case wasn't irrational ... and I was pissed at her because when she got so adamant without evidence and starting calling me an idiot a few times over, I took that pretty personally. I'm not an idiot, even if I'm wrong sometimes... and inductive arguments always have some risk of being wrong; that's the nature of them. I hadn't made any pretenses. The inductive reasonings I had made were generally reasonable... this time they just happened to be wrong.

Anyway, she's done it before, and I've had other STJs with low-social skills insist they were right without feeling the need to "prove their case." I think once people get more adept at relating, they realize they need to put more out there rather than just assuming everyone sees what they see. I was going to say maybe it's easier for S's to forget that (since N's are supposed to more naturally recognize multiple views), but going by my experience on this forum, where I've butted heads with some NTJs in similar matters (where they weren't explaining their argument or maybe didn't even know how to), I guess it strikes TJs in general.

Seriously? Stupid? That's kind of extreme. For me, at least, it's not coming from a place where I would want to hurt somebody. Most time I'm in a comfortable place, with people who won't be easily offended if I'm not trying to be tactful. Especially if you end up being wrong.....that's where you see what a person is made of. Quick apologies with little to no explanation or justification for why you're wrong work best.

 

[IZthe411]

@Giggly: You're completely right.

.

@Iz: Now that I think about it, my INTJ friends do the same thing...

I blame Te. Fe can be the same way, if not worse.

 

[InvisibleJim]

IxTJ, Freestyling the world of rational behaviour.

 

[Giggly]

.. and she called me an "f*ing idiot" three or four times in a row because she was so sure she was right

Terrible.

You didn't deserve that at all.

 

[IZthe411]

IxTJ, Freestyling the world of rational behaviour.

 

[Giggly]

@Giggly: You're completely right.

@prplchknz:
I understand the feeling. You just want to help them understand! I love your avatar btw.

@Iz: Now that I think about it, my INTJ friends do the same thing...

@Jennifer:
Ouch, I'm sorry. That seems so annoying; I would never take it to that extreme. I think when someone is calling the other person an idiot, they've already lost.
I would never take something as fact without solid evidence, though I do make the mistake of assuming everyone sees things the way I see them.

Maybe you are ISFJ.

 

[mochajava]

So, would you say that these type of TJs are not okay with "agreeing to disagree"? I know that my ISTJ and I have differing viewpoints over what should be done in a situation, and there's no real evidence to support either side, because it's more like a preference ("do you like that outfit?" "no." "what is wrong with you?"). How easy is to say just agree to disagree? ("well, I guess we don't see eye to on that.") Is that really the end of that, or would that feel unsettling to a TJ?

 

[Glycerine]

I blame Te. Fe can be the same way, if not worse.

I will admit that I do it mostly to get under people's skin if they piss me off or if I am annoyed. What you say about Fe users might be true.... eek. Actually my XSTJ brother used to do this to me to piss me off also.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Change to: "Js and steamrolling." All TJs do it. FJs also do it, only a different way. Instead of saying, "this is the truth," it's "this is how you should act."

 

[Glycerine]

I go more the "you are an idiot" route through subtle insinuation not " this is the way you should act" route. I am more like the TJs but more subtle.

 

[Orangey]

I know several STJs and two NTJs. They all do this, though I don't really have a problem with it. We'll just get in a bitching match and be done with it a few minutes later, or settle it by finding out who's right from an external source.

 

[IZthe411]

So, would you say that these type of TJs are not okay with "agreeing to disagree"? I know that my ISTJ and I have differing viewpoints over what should be done in a situation, and there's no real evidence to support either side, because it's more like a preference ("do you like that outfit?" "no." "what is wrong with you?"). How easy is to say just agree to disagree? ("well, I guess we don't see eye to on that.") Is that really the end of that, or would that feel unsettling to a TJ?

They'll say ATD, but it's rarely over. LOL. Any future evidence to furhter support their viewpoint will spark it up again.

 

[IZthe411]

I will admit that I do it mostly to get under people's skin if they piss me off or if I am annoyed. What you say about Fe users might be true.... eek. Actually my XSTJ brother used to do this to me to piss me off also

Same here, especially with other Js who have a perspecitive that they have no business trying to assert on others.

 

[Habba]

I believe in forcing, when it serves a purpose. Oftimes people deny the truth because they are afraid of it. Sometimes giving people a little bit of push can make them conquer their own fears and become better people.

I like telling people how things are, but I also welcome good counter-arguments. But most of the time I'm pretty confident with my own logic, and that can be see as steamrolling.

Anyways, I always try to count human emotions as a factor too. Sometimes truth can die if it's too painful/embarrassing/whatever to hear. And especially I don't want to bash anyone in front of other people.

Anyways.. didn't read all the posts here, so I'm not even sure if this is completely on-topic... but hey, I make it on-topic by posting this! You just got Steam-Roll'd.