[SJ] Does it suck being an SJ?

[Orangey]

No. I'm suggesting you stop telling him what his intentions are as you have no way of knowing those and are clearly not willing to first understand them to then make your judgement. For that matter, stop intuiting my intentions while you're at it. And I was hoping....*hoping* that, considering all the Fi/Fe threads we have on here, it would help to use this as an example to increase understanding. I was also hoping that increased understanding might provide you with additional information upon which to review your judgement. My mistake.

You've really taken the Fi/Fe thread stuff too far.

 

[Poki]

I'm not trying to sound insulting or derogatory, but I feel like I would die if I turned into an SJ. Does it ever get hard having that Si voice in your head constantly being like "you're supposed to do this" "it's your duty to do that" "RULES!!!". I mean, it's gotta be at least a LITTLE bit stressful. what's it's like having Si as your first or second function?

Maybe the above OP has changed since the initial post, but I dont see how the above OP is insulting or derogatory. It was a personal opinion from the start and was stated as a personal opinion.

 

[Poki]

...

If Elfboy was that set in his judgement would he posit the question and if he was why would he even phrase it in a way thats so easily refuted? Its simple logic, not conspiracy theory.

You want to determine "intentions" figure out what he thinks now after people have responded. Has his view changed or has it not. If it has then your theory holds no water as he was not set in his view...if he does then you are left with 2 choices...no one has convinced him or he is already set in his view like you are about his intentions and that would be like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Orangey]

Maybe the above OP has changed since the initial post, but I dont see how the above OP is insulting or derogatory. It was a personal opinion from the start and was stated as a personal opinion.

Maybe we should start using some "personal opinion" tags so that other people will know that, because it's a personal opinion, it's therefore not open to criticism like "real" opinions are. The "personal" part makes all the difference, I know.

If Elfboy was that set in his judgement would he posit the question and if he was why would he even phrase it in a way thats so easily refuted? Its simple logic, not conspiracy theory.

You want to determine "intentions" figure out what he thinks now after people have responded. Has his view changed or has it not. If it has then your theory holds no water as he was not set in his view...if he does then you are left with 2 choices...no one has convinced him or he is already set in his view like you are about his intentions and that would be like the pot calling the kettle black.

His judgment? I have never been concerned about what he thinks of SJs. My original statement was that the OP seemed like it was a vehicle for ego inflation at the expense of SJs (mostly because the OP was nothing more than a rhetorical fucking question.) Whether his "view" of SJs has changed since he made the OP has no relevance to this claim, and neither does his retraction of his "derogatory" language. I did not find the OP offensive simply because it contained language which may seem harsh to SJs (that is, no, I was not simply reacting to the words "suck" and "SJ"); rather I was offended by the implicit sense of superiority in the way that he compared his own type to SJs, which smacked strongly of self-glorification. Of course, one may disagree with me that there was any implicit sense of superiority present, but I have yet to receive any denial or argument (even from the OP himself) against that claim. So far, his only defense has been that "he didn't intend to say anything bad about SJs"; but as I've pointed out, I never said that he did.

Really, what is so hard about this? I said that the OP was self-glorifying because it was essentially a rhetorical question. I gave an argument which pointed out why I thought this was the case (namely, that he had answered his own question already in the OP.) People responded telling me that he did not intend to insult SJs, and that he genuinely did want to find out about Si. The former is, as I've said above, irrelevant to my claim, and the latter is nothing other than a counter-assertion lacking in evidence to back it up (and it's also irrelevant.)

 

[KDude]

Maybe we should start using some "personal opinion" tags so that other people will know that, because it's a personal opinion, it's therefore not open to criticism like "real" opinions are. The "personal" part makes all the difference, I know.

Oh God, please no.

On a related note, I used to be on a site that started enforcing the use of sarcasm in green text.

 

[Orangey]

Oh God, please no.

On a related note, I used to be on a site that started enforcing the use of sarcasm in green text.

Hmm, then maybe we should also change the username colors for members who don't want others criticizing the stupid shit that they post, since it's all just personal opinion, after all. Or maybe I should just stop criticizing what anyone says at all, since personal opinions, by virtue of their personalness, can never be stupid or wrong.

 

[KDude]

Or maybe I should just stop criticizing what anyone says at all, since personal opinions, by virtue of their personalness, can never be stupid or wrong.

Yes, Orangey.. You need to stop criticizing personal opinions. It's just not right.

 

[sui generis]

PS: it's interesting that several non SJs are like "you're prejudiced against SJs" while the actual SJs posting here understand my intention perfectly and are happy to share information about what being an SJ is really like and why it doesn't suck.

I understand where you're coming from, but I still think the question was based in prejudice. If you weren't prejudiced against SJs, you might have worded it more like "So what's it like being an SJ?", instead of automatically assuming it sucks.

 

[A window to the soul]

Tisk, tisk, arguing over silly details again. Respectfully, there's a time to step back, breathe, relax, and laugh at the "stupid sh**"; including any posts in this forum deemed as such. There's a time for peace. What better time to relax than now? It's long over due.

Give your body a rest for a few days and girl smile. Remember fun?

Chronic arguing over every little detail 90% of the time can make one look 50 before they turn 25 (on the inside & the outside) -- the body releases a cocktail of "death/aging" hormones under stress. Not to mention the burden it puts on your poor fellow peeps that just want to chill and have a mutual stress-free give & take. Or a friendly verbal sparring that ends with a handshake and a laugh. That's what I mean by "healthy."



Perhaps I've misunderstood the numerous passionate replies bleeding all over this place.

 

[Poki]

Maybe we should start using some "personal opinion" tags so that other people will know that, because it's a personal opinion, it's therefore not open to criticism like "real" opinions are. The "personal" part makes all the difference, I know.

Which makes your opinion open to my criticism.

His judgment? I have never been concerned about what he thinks of SJs. My original statement was that the OP seemed like it was a vehicle for ego inflation at the expense of SJs (mostly because the OP was nothing more than a rhetorical fucking question.) Whether his "view" of SJs has changed since he made the OP has no relevance to this claim, and neither does his retraction of his "derogatory" language. I did not find the OP offensive simply because it contained language which may seem harsh to SJs (that is, no, I was not simply reacting to the words "suck" and "SJ"); rather I was offended by the implicit sense of superiority in the way that he compared his own type to SJs, which smacked strongly of self-glorification. Of course, one may disagree with me that there was any implicit sense of superiority present, but I have yet to receive any denial or argument (even from the OP himself) against that claim. So far, his only defense has been that "he didn't intend to say anything bad about SJs"; but as I've pointed out, I never said that he did.

Really, what is so hard about this? I said that the OP was self-glorifying because it was essentially a rhetorical question. I gave an argument which pointed out why I thought this was the case (namely, that he had answered his own question already in the OP.) People responded telling me that he did not intend to insult SJs, and that he genuinely did want to find out about Si. The former is, as I've said above, irrelevant to my claim, and the latter is nothing other than a counter-assertion lacking in evidence to back it up (and it's also irrelevant.)

Ok, so while we are at it...No Rhetorical Questions. Its offensive to some members as well because of what it implicitly implies Why dont we extend it further...members of this forum are not allowed to state a personal opinion of how they see things before asking a question as it reaks of implicit self-glorification. I also dont see him comparing SJs to himself in the OP, is that an implicit thing as well.

Any more rules to keep from being offensive? This wee little Fe of mine is not so great at social rules.

I mean seriosuly...it sucks to be an ISTP at times. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but I simply read...."Is it hard to be ISTJ at times?". That is what I implicitly got out of the whole OP and is what I read between the lines. I dont see that as offensive.

 

[Elfboy]

I understand where you're coming from, but I still think the question was based in prejudice. If you weren't prejudiced against SJs, you might have worded it more like "So what's it like being an SJ?", instead of automatically assuming it sucks.

actually, no assumptions were made. in fact, the reason for the post was that it would be prejudiced if I just assumed it sucked and left it at that. from the outside, what I see in the majority of SJs is people who are very routine focused and frequently work extremely long days. lots of them I know are also very hard on themselves, so my thought was "wow, that sucks, I don't know how anyone could do that" but then I thought "wait maybe it doesn't suck for them, perhaps they actually like it". one could liken it more to a scientist having a poorly educated hypothesis. I will say that I am still amazed at how many SJs (and NJs) can work for such long periods of time without feeling stressed. personally, even if it's something I like, I need frequent breaks if I am to work more than 6 hours.

in truth, I mistook being hard working and routine driven for being rigid, much in the same way that non NPs often misinterpret Ne as stereotyping and putting them in boxes (we tend to make very general statements and assume that people know that we know that their are plenty of exeptions. correct me if I'm wrong, but Js as a whole tend to make more "certain" statements or ask a question while NPs would rather guess and gather input based on the response to this guess. the trouble with this tactic is obviously when people don't know that you're guessing). this of course, does not appear to be the case. come to think of it, my question really should have been asked to Js a whole and not just SJs.

 

[Elfboy]

posted by Orangey

Really, what is so hard about this? I said that the OP was self-glorifying because it was essentially a rhetorical question. I gave an argument which pointed out why I thought this was the case (namely, that he had answered his own question already in the OP.) People responded telling me that he did not intend to insult SJs, and that he genuinely did want to find out about Si. The former is, as I've said above, irrelevant to my claim, and the latter is nothing other than a counter-assertion lacking in evidence to back it up (and it's also irrelevant.)

I'm afraid I can't see the logic in posting a rhetorical question as a thread title. the "answers" I gave were more like hypothesis, albeit this was poorly explained. as a rule of thumb, most NPs absolutely abhor rhetorical questions. I think most NPs would agree with me that we frequently feel deprived of quality conversation and would rather use a question to spur conversation than to cut it off (at least in the initial stages. using a "Te bitchslap" to cut off a poisonous conversation often involves a few rhetorical and non rhetorical questions of various degrees of harshness).

posted by Orangey

Maybe we should start using some "personal opinion" tags so that other people will know that, because it's a personal opinion, it's therefore not open to criticism like "real" opinions are. The "personal" part makes all the difference, I know.

actually, I think this is a wonderful idea

 

[Orangey]

Which makes your opinion open to my criticism.

I never said it wasn't.

Ok, so while we are at it...No Rhetorical Questions. Its offensive to some members as well because of what it implicitly implies

You're being dense. It's not because it was a rhetorical question that it's "offensive," it's what being a rhetorical question means in the context of a thread in which an answerable question was claimed to have been asked.

Why dont we extend it further...members of this forum are not allowed to state a personal opinion of how they see things before asking a question as it reaks of implicit self-glorification.

I never said it wasn't allowed, I just said it was stupid. And again, his personal opinion of SJs (or their condition, or whatever the hell he is talking about) was never my direct point of concern.

I also dont see him comparing SJs to himself in the OP, is that an implicit thing as well.

No, it's pretty much direct. He said he would die if he, an ENFP, were an SJ because, unlike ENFPs, SJs have a little Si voice in their heads telling them, "'you're supposed to do this' 'it's your duty to do that' 'RULES!!!'" He even later on admitted that he was talking about being an SJ from the perspective of being an ENFP (i.e., comparing.)

Any more rules to keep from being offensive? This wee little Fe of mine is not so great at social rules.

Where did you get that I was proposing rules? Don't be histrionic.

I mean seriosuly...it sucks to be an ISTP at times.

It does? If anything, it only sucks to be XXXX type if XXXX type finds itself in circumstances unbefitting to its way of being, in which case it doesn't so much suck to be XXXX type as it sucks to be in that situation as an XXXX type. And if it does feel like it sucks to be XXXX type regardless of circumstances, then it probably has more to do with the mental health of the individual than it does with the type. Hence why it would only suck to be SJ (especially for the reasons listed in the OP) if you were an ENFP (or some other type) projecting your prejudicial understanding of SJs onto SJs themselves (or if you were a self-hating SJ.)

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but I simply read...."Is it hard to be ISTJ at times?". That is what I implicitly got out of the whole OP and is what I read between the lines. I dont see that as offensive.

That's fine for you.

 

[Orangey]

posted by Orangey

actually, I think this is a wonderful idea

You would.

actually, no assumptions were made. in fact, the reason for the post was that it would be prejudiced if I just assumed it sucked and left it at that. from the outside, what I see in the majority of SJs is people who are very routine focused and frequently work extremely long days. lots of them I know are also very hard on themselves, so my thought was "wow, that sucks, I don't know how anyone could do that" but then I thought "wait maybe it doesn't suck for them, perhaps they actually like it". one could liken it more to a scientist having a poorly educated hypothesis. I will say that I am still amazed at how many SJs (and NJs) can work for such long periods of time without feeling stressed. personally, even if it's something I like, I need frequent breaks if I am to work more than 6 hours.

in truth, I mistook being hard working and routine driven for being rigid, much in the same way that non NPs often misinterpret Ne as stereotyping and putting them in boxes (we tend to make very general statements and assume that people know that we know that their are plenty of exeptions. correct me if I'm wrong, but Js as a whole tend to make more "certain" statements or ask a question while NPs would rather guess and gather input based on the response to this guess. the trouble with this tactic is obviously when people don't know that you're guessing). this of course, does not appear to be the case. come to think of it, my question really should have been asked to Js a whole and not just SJs.

Alright, I'll leave off it for now. Perhaps some more SJs will jump in to say "no, it doesn't suck to be SJ," and your new-found understanding that it does not, in fact, suck to be SJ will grow exponentially.

 

[Elfboy]

I'm gonna re-post the second half of my last post because it was responded to before I added in the second part:

Really, what is so hard about this? I said that the OP was self-glorifying because it was essentially a rhetorical question. I gave an argument which pointed out why I thought this was the case (namely, that he had answered his own question already in the OP.) People responded telling me that he did not intend to insult SJs, and that he genuinely did want to find out about Si. The former is, as I've said above, irrelevant to my claim, and the latter is nothing other than a counter-assertion lacking in evidence to back it up (and it's also irrelevant.)

I'm afraid I can't see the logic in posting a rhetorical question as a thread title. the "answers" I gave were more like hypothesis, albeit this was poorly explained. as a rule of thumb, most NPs absolutely abhor rhetorical questions. I think most NPs would agree with me that we frequently feel deprived of quality conversation and would rather use a question to spur conversation than to cut it off (at least in the initial stages. using a "Te bitchslap" to cut off a poisonous conversation often involves a few rhetorical and non rhetorical questions of various degrees of harshness).

 

[Orangey]

Okay, so finally we're somewhat on the same page, I think.

I'm afraid I can't see the logic in posting a rhetorical question as a thread title.

Neither can I, except as a way to covertly accomplish other motives. That's a big reason why I thought what I thought.

the "answers" I gave were more like hypothesis, albeit this was poorly explained.

I see. I suppose I discounted the possibility that you genuinely did not know that it probably would not suck, for the reasons you stated, to be an SJ (since it seems painfully obvious to me.) That's why I deduced that, if you already knew the answer to your own question, you must have had other motivations for starting the thread. I guess I gave you too much credit.

At any rate, as you've directly clarified your intentions in terms of what I was saying, I'll take your word for it and be off.

 

[Athenian200]

I see. I suppose I discounted the possibility that you genuinely did not know that it probably would not suck, for the reasons you stated, to be an SJ (since it seems painfully obvious to me.) That's why I deduced that, if you already knew the answer to your own question, you must have had other motivations for starting the thread. I guess I gave you too much credit.

Hanlon's razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I think that might be the lesson to take away from this thread.

 

[Poki]

I never said it wasn't.



You're being dense. It's not because it was a rhetorical question that it's "offensive," it's what being a rhetorical question means in the context of a thread in which an answerable question was claimed to have been asked.



I never said it wasn't allowed, I just said it was stupid. And again, his personal opinion of SJs (or their condition, or whatever the hell he is talking about) was never my direct point of concern.



No, it's pretty much direct. He said he would die if he, an ENFP, were an SJ because, unlike ENFPs, SJs have a little Si voice in their heads telling them, "'you're supposed to do this' 'it's your duty to do that' 'RULES!!!'" He even later on admitted that he was talking about being an SJ from the perspective of being an ENFP (i.e., comparing.)



Where did you get that I was proposing rules? Don't be histrionic.



It does? If anything, it only sucks to be XXXX type if XXXX type finds itself in circumstances unbefitting to its way of being, in which case it doesn't so much suck to be XXXX type as it sucks to be in that situation as an XXXX type. And if it does feel like it sucks to be XXXX type regardless of circumstances, then it probably has more to do with the mental health of the individual than it does with the type. Hence why it would only suck to be SJ (especially for the reasons listed in the OP) if you were an ENFP (or some other type) projecting your prejudicial understanding of SJs onto SJs themselves (or if you were a self-hating SJ.)



That's fine for you.

You sure your not INTP? (dont answer...its a rhetorical question[and not poking fun at the OPs rhetorical question or anything else in this discussion in regard to rhetorical questions{I cant think of any other warnings...oh...let me highlight in green])

 

[Orangey]

I don't believe we ever agreed that the safe color would be green, dammit.

 

[Poki]

I don't believe we ever agreed that the safe color would be green, dammit.

but I chiseled it in stone already