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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    These threads are obnoxious.

    Please stop making them.
    Whether these threads are obnoxious or not is entirely a value judgment and subject to personal appreciation. Hence, your statement is incorrect. These threads are not obnoxious - you feel these threads are obnoxious. Your personal opinion holds no value of scientific truth, so I might aswell just dismiss it as being irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Mmm....kaaaaayy......

    Two things:

    1) I agree with you
    2) Anyone who hires someone just because they met them at a club or on a social network deserves whatever it is they get. I WANT CREDENTIALS PEOPLE!

    Usually the two go hand in hand so I prefer someone who is competent as a result of their years of experience If I had to choose between the two, then yes I would agree with you again.

    All work and no brief moments of gossiping about Darlene's cousin's-sister's-son-in-law bonk honking Debbie from accounting makes tinker683 a dull boy :'(
    Absolutely, and I'm glad to hear that. It makes far more sense to do so, but current practices in HR are so rigid and set on "the way it has been done" that it will take ages before it changes to someting constructive.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Show us that scientific research! If it's credible, we'll go the new way. NBD

    Misconception about SJs: we're impossible to convince. Just because we're skeptical of new and unusual data, doesn't mean we won't change our minds given enough evidence contrary to our usual methodology.

    Come on, they're still beneficial. They give an opportunity for discussion! And we WANT discussion, because it leads to new insights! Let's be positive

    (Then again, this is from the person who's been answering variations on the same question for over a year on one thread... So I have more patience for this sort of thing.)

    Edit: Which SJs are you referring to, Falcon?
    You're a clever one you are! I know you ESTJ's. One of my best friends is one. You ESTJ's like to pretend you follow tradition and order just to be clever and blend in. Underneath you're thinking about science fiction, Star Trek, and hiding your closet geekiness :-)

    Can't you intuit the data with your repressed N function? Surely you can!

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    he's referring the ones who probably hire us lazy SPs because we're the kids of their golf buddies or something :rolli:
    Not only becaue they're the kids of their golf buddies, but because they're good-looking, hot, and seem like people that would be willing to put in that "extra effort of a special nature" to get a promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    No kidding. There are some strange things going on lately.
    Is it a full moon? Lol.
    The really strange things that have been going on have been going without a full moon, since years, and keep continuing to erode organizational efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    If they work, why change? Really, this is not me impersonating an SJ or something. There's some merit in keeping things like they are. I just wish the pedagogues would learn THAT instead of changing the education system every decade! Now they are putting all pupils together regardless what they are good or bad at. Please learn your history pedagogues. You've tried that already in the eighties and it didn't work. And no, it doesn't help to call it another name.
    I've experienced already more harm in bosses trying to put their stamp on things and changing policies just when the employees were getting used to it.
    The question is not whether to change or not to change.

    The questions are: how can we diminish unemployment? How can optimally use competencies of new graduates? How can we increase business profit in a time of crisis? How can we diminish inefficiency in organizations and length of meetings? When you see the mediocre management that goes on in most businesses, you wonder how is it that these obvious questions are not asked more often.

    Huh? Isn't that implemented already?? Isn't that the tradition actually? Read the newspapers and write application letters. Yes, there are some quite recent things added to it, which I very much like. There's an organisation to help jobless people find jobs (and to help employers find people) who has an Internet database. For teachers there's even an apart "pool" - if a teacher gets ill, the headmaster (or the secretary) can find interim teachers in the subject with some mouse clicks. It's basically the same thing as the old newspaper ads but adapted to our new information highway. Why not
    I found already two jobs (each one a contract of one year) with old-fashioned spontaneous application letters and one (a contract of two months) with the teacher's pool.
    Most jobs are posted internally in organizations, and only 20% of jobs are posted publically. This creates a culture of mediocrity instead of competence, because there is no way of knowing if other candidates outside of the social networks of employees would have been better.

    Yes, but experience has its merit too. A new employee has to learn how things are done in that firm. And has to get to know his coworkers. You don't want to change a team which is performing rather well. I guess here it's a question of finding a balance. Will the new employee add a value to the team that's worth some training and adapting? Maybe an SJ employer would answer "no" too often.
    It's not whether to learn how things are done or not. It's competence. If you arrive with competencies that are superior to those of existing employees, then it should be the firm that learns from you, asking you to teach others about these new techniques. It shouldn't be up to you to adapt to a way of doing things which is backwards. If you don't have special competencies, then it's logical that you learn from others who have something to teach you.

    "The way things are done here" is just an inside joke, and an excuse for laziness and generalized incompetence in organizations.

    I don't know about this one. A human is not fit to work non-stop. Every day I start with lots of ideas (I'll finish this and that work and then I've got time to work on that mad project!), but find myself exhausted at the middle and in de need of "not working nor doing creative projects" for a while. Yes it's frustrating. No work gets done and I'm not even creating anything!
    Maybe we should accept that we're less efficient than we want to be.
    I really need the coffee breaks at school, despite I hate coffee. The nice thing at a school is that they are scheduled. They start at a given moment (when the pupils get a much needed break too) and stop at another given moment. You don't feel as if you should be working instead.
    When I was doing research, it was another matter. I always felt as if I should work instead, because I hadn't produced anything yet! At the other hand, the discussions during the coffee break helped to put your research in perspective and sometimes generated new ideas.
    Do you see people working so much? I see people spending inordinate amounts of time in meetings, chit chatting, and pretending they're working while in fact they're surfing on Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I'm afraid not. There will be no changing allowed. Ever.
    See you at the coffee machine for a discussion on that plan to get rid of those useless procedures!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Whether these threads are obnoxious or not is entirely a value judgment and subject to personal appreciation. Hence, your statement is incorrect. These threads are not obnoxious - you feel these threads are obnoxious. Your personal opinion holds no value of scientific truth, so I might aswell just dismiss it as being irrelevant.
    Thank you, Mr. Cobb.

    I had no idea what a value judgment was before you just informed me of it.


  3. #13
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    I can't believe you people are still using old methods over and over again.
    Are you in a frustrating business environment right now? I know how maddening that can be. I wouldn't dump all of that baggage at the SJs door, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    POLICY N°1: Formal hiring. Forget about social networks and clubs, we need to have people hired based on jobs posted publically.
    If you forget about social networks and non-traditional places to seek potential applicants, then its actually you who is stuck in the past. Have you studied any innovative talent finding practices by successful companies? By researching and applying the findings, companies implemented new ways of reaching potential applicants, to their great benefit. Plus the practices have lowered cost per hire below the average. Cisco Systems is an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    POLICY N°2: Competence overrides experience. It does not matter how experienced you are if you can do the job better!
    Competency means the skills and talents needed to perform a particular task to a particular standard. So while they aren't mutually exclusive, and experience can certainly engender competency, I would agree that competency takes precedence.

    I'm personally interested in behavior based competency models, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    POLICY N°3: No chit-chat at coffee machine. All of this talk is inefficient and it would be better to get down to work instead.
    Cultivating an appropriate culture is really important, as is demonstrating that culture to recruits during the selection process. Your preference might be for a socializing-free workplace, and others may find that stifling. Just remember corporate culture has consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Absolutely, and I'm glad to hear that. It makes far more sense to do so, but current practices in HR are so rigid and set on "the way it has been done" that it will take ages before it changes to someting constructive.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "in HR". Do you mean your particular workplace? The Society of Human Resource Managers doesn't advocate that kind of thing. None of the current texts I have come across advocate it either. But companies themselves do lag. Consider that 45% of global corporations have no recruitment strategy, and 75% of executives report a shortage of talent. But only 15% of executives make staffing a first priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    The questions are: how can we diminish unemployment? How can optimally use competencies of new graduates? How can we increase business profit in a time of crisis? How can we diminish inefficiency in organizations and length of meetings? When you see the mediocre management that goes on in most businesses, you wonder how is it that these obvious questions are not asked more often.
    Its true. I know that these questions are being thoughtfully examined in the industry as a whole. But, yes, bad management can stultify an organization like nothing else. It seems to often be a function of bad leadership. So, I agree that the impacts of manager behavior absolutely should be analyzed.

    Textbook recruitment practices have about nine steps that continue in a feedback loop. It's tied to the company's strategic vision and the creation of thorough job analyzes.

    A discussion on training brings in a whole 'nother aspect, but yes training needs assessments and appraisal systems are very crucial. These things are stressed in HR education. It is a shame that so many organizations neglect them to their own detriment. But thats why the top HR management executives make the big bucks, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    I see people spending inordinate amounts of time in meetings, chit chatting, and pretending they're working while in fact they're surfing on Facebook.
    There are different ways to remedy this. A solution might involve motivating and incentivizing workers, inspiring them, finding ways to innovate. Frequent performance appraisals would also likely make a difference.


    Since you seem compelled, I really encourage you to investigate the field in depth. There is no shortage of information.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    Are you in a frustrating business environment right now? I know how maddening that can be. I wouldn't dump all of that baggage at the SJs door, though.
    The situation in which I am does not matter, there is inefficiency and ineffectiveness in the system which needs to be addressed. Personality type is irrelevant and a poor predictor of job performance.

    If you forget about social networks and non-traditional places to seek potential applicants, then its actually you who is stuck in the past. Have you studied any innovative talent finding practices by successful companies? By researching and applying the findings, companies implemented new ways of reaching potential applicants, to their great benefit. Plus the practices have lowered cost per hire below the average. Cisco Systems is an example.
    There is a wealth of HR practices documented in peer-reviewed journals which have still not been applied in organizations. Statistics show that the majority of organizations still rely on hiring techniques which have little predictive validity concerning effectiveness on the job.

    Competency means the skills and talents needed to perform a particular task to a particular standard. So while they aren't mutually exclusive, and experience can certainly engender competency, I would agree that competency takes precedence.

    I'm personally interested in behavior based competency models, too.
    Right. Behavior based competency models offer an improvement, although the percent of variance explained by them is still poor compared to IQ.

    Cultivating an appropriate culture is really important, as is demonstrating that culture to recruits during the selection process. Your preference might be for a socializing-free workplace, and others may find that stifling. Just remember corporate culture has consequences.
    Information flow and exchange should be about projects, work issues, roles, organization, and not matters that are not related to performance. The exchange of work specific information in informal situations is beneficial to completion of objectives.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "in HR". Do you mean your particular workplace? The Society of Human Resource Managers doesn't advocate that kind of thing. None of the current texts I have come across advocate it either. But companies themselves do lag. Consider that 45% of global corporations have no recruitment strategy, and 75% of executives report a shortage of talent. But only 15% of executives make staffing a first priority.
    HR as in Human Ressources in organizations. What is advocated by societies and what is seen in practice is different. It is a sign of incompetence of business leaders to fail to implement HR strategies that could maximize organizational effectiveness.

    Its true. I know that these questions are being thoughtfully examined in the industry as a whole. But, yes, bad management can stultify an organization like nothing else. It seems to often be a function of bad leadership. So, I agree that the impacts of manager behavior absolutely should be analyzed.

    Textbook recruitment practices have about nine steps that continue in a feedback loop. It's tied to the company's strategic vision and the creation of thorough job analyzes.

    A discussion on training brings in a whole 'nother aspect, but yes training needs assessments and appraisal systems are very crucial. These things are stressed in HR education. It is a shame that so many organizations neglect them to their own detriment. But thats why the top HR management executives make the big bucks, I guess.
    You're right.

    There are different ways to remedy this. A solution might involve motivating and incentivizing workers, inspiring them, finding ways to innovate. Frequent performance appraisals would also likely make a difference.
    Yes, but motivational aspects would be addressed better with a focus on operational objectives and associated rewards for expected performance.

    Since you seem compelled, I really encourage you to investigate the field in depth. There is no shortage of information.
    What makes you think that this hasn't been done before?

  5. #15
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Personality type is irrelevant and a poor predictor of job performance.
    Okay, I thought you were bringing it up here.
    I have a new set of policies for you SJ's to implement

    I can't believe you people are still using old methods over and over again.
    But it seems we agree.

    There is a wealth of HR practices documented in peer-reviewed journals which have still not been applied in organizations. Statistics show that the majority of organizations still rely on hiring techniques which have little predictive validity concerning effectiveness on the job.

    Right. Behavior based competency models offer an improvement, although the percent of variance explained by them is still poor compared to IQ.
    Yes, as I learn more about it, I do see just how little attention most organizations pay to all the extensive research.

    I don't know about IQ focused competency models. Most of the models I study cover the full range of KSOAs.

    Information flow and exchange should be about projects, work issues, roles, organization, and not matters that are not related to performance. The exchange of work specific information in informal situations is beneficial to completion of objectives.
    I see, but there is such a thing as the perception of the quality of worklife, too.

    Yes, but motivational aspects would be addressed better with a focus on operational objectives and associated rewards for expected performance.
    Its interesting I was having a discussion on this very recently, evidently much research shows that strictly speaking, pay-for-performance doesn't work.

    What makes you think that this hasn't been done before?
    I'm sorry for being presumptuous. I meant investigate the field as a career since you seem passionate about it. You are right that not enough companies pay attention to human capital management. In spite of that, well informed, top level HR executives make very good money and are a vital strategic component in successful corporations. So then that could be one way to have your policies implemented on a large scale. And after you've studied all the research, and risen to the top, if you still felt compelled to break up the coffee break chatter with an iron fist, you could do so.


    This is more about me than about your comments Human capital management hasn't been what I expected. But I could see how it could captivate others.
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  6. #16
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    I needed to think a bit about this before answering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    The questions are: how can we diminish unemployment? How can optimally use competencies of new graduates? How can we increase business profit in a time of crisis? How can we diminish inefficiency in organizations and length of meetings? When you see the mediocre management that goes on in most businesses, you wonder how is it that these obvious questions are not asked more often.
    So you want diminish unemployment AND make sure the work is done most efficiently? This can't go together. You know, if 10 people lose time at the coffee table, 5 people who don't do that would be able to do the same job. In countries with almost no unemployment you get three cashiers serving one client.
    But I understand your aim better now. You want to make the job market more mobile. If a firm hires more new candidates instead of promoting people who work there already, that's not a job extra. Count it - let's say there is a place for a manager. Firm A hires a totally new person. Firm B takes an employee who showed to be able to lead - and needs someone new to fill the old job from the promoted employee. What you're promoting is not a way to make more jobs; but a way to (try and) give the jobs to the persons who are most competent at that job.
    Particularly in education you need this sort of thing. There's a thing called "vaste benoeming" in Dutch (I don't know the word in English. Edit. Word seems to be "tenure". Thanks Vasilisa!) - if you work for some years as a teacher, you get it and then it's very, very difficult to get laid off. So lots of teachers work and work until they get it and then just slack off. And lots of headmasters are surveying beginning teachers under close scrutiny, in the hope that, by coaching them and selecting them when they CAN throw them out, the teachers will keep on doing their best when they are "vastbenoemd". They should abolish this - which would take pressure from the young teachers and put a bit of pressure on the old birds.

    I never realized you were thinking at that big scale! (you out-N-ed me )
    I was looking at the smaller scale, inside the firm itself. I was thinking about employees getting a totally new boss doing things in a totally new way, which makes them lose productivity and makes them grumpy. People are routine beasts, especially the lowly workers who don't have time to think about big-scale improvements. They just think "what now? Each time I get used to the way of working there's a new way and I've got to adapt AGAIN!"

    My stance is (now) a bit nuanced, actually. Your answer made me think about the "vaste benoeming". There are cases of a too rigid job system, too. I think you need to look at it from case to case.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Whether these threads are obnoxious or not is entirely a value judgment and subject to personal appreciation. Hence, your statement is incorrect. These threads are not obnoxious - you feel these threads are obnoxious. Your personal opinion holds no value of scientific truth, so I might aswell just dismiss it as being irrelevant.
    well I didn't notice you starting any threads stereotyping members of the NF or NT forums....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    This is more about me than about your comments Human capital management hasn't been what I expected. But I could see how it could captivate others.
    Thanks for saying the truth. You NF's have knack for appearing cooperative/good when you are implicitly selling yourself/expecting approval.

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  9. #19
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    I promise, you won't find me guilty of initiating or encouraging water-cooler chat, when I could always opt for silence. Honest!
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  10. #20
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Most jobs are posted internally in organizations, and only 20% of jobs are posted publically. This creates a culture of mediocrity instead of competence, because there is no way of knowing if other candidates outside of the social networks of employees would have been better.

    It's not whether to learn how things are done or not. It's competence. If you arrive with competencies that are superior to those of existing employees, then it should be the firm that learns from you, asking you to teach others about these new techniques. It shouldn't be up to you to adapt to a way of doing things which is backwards. If you don't have special competencies, then it's logical that you learn from others who have something to teach you.

    "The way things are done here" is just an inside joke, and an excuse for laziness and generalized incompetence in organizations.
    The flaw in your argument is that being able to get things done in an organization often comes down to relationships, knowing how things work there and knowing the culture. It is efficient for companies to move people around into different roles because they know how to get things done at the company, have the relationships and understand the business better than somebody coming in from the outside. Also, turnover costs money. I'm a consultant, and do understand the value of bringing in outsiders, new blood, etc. but these things I mentioned are part of competency. Also, having to do things differently costs money.

    I'm not saying companies couldn't do a better job with hiring practices. I agree it is of enormous importance.

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