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[SJ] Fellow SJs: do people see you as "closed-minded"?

EJCC

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I ask because that is SUCH an SJ stereotype, and I was curious to see whether the stereotype is valid or not. I know from my personal experience that I am NOT viewed as closed-minded, and no one has ever nagged at me for being closed-minded, AND, for that matter, closed-minded people can really irritate me.... but I don't want to judge all SJs based on my own experience.

I don't mean for this to be a hate thread, or a <3 thread, for that matter... I'm simply curious. It's an opportunity to either enforce or break a stereotype, and why pass that opportunity up?

So what are your thoughts, fellow Guardians?
 

entropie

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Do you think by asking fellow SJs if people see them as closed-minded you'll achieve anything ?
 

EJCC

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No - I don't mean asking them if they're closed-minded. I mean asking people if anyone has ever called them closed-minded. Or if people ever think of them that way. For example, I can list off perceived qualities that make people dislike me - e.g. perceived arrogance - and I was wondering if any SJs had ever had anyone, say, rant at them for being "closed-minded", even if they don't think of themselves that way.

I probably should have phrased it differently... Too late now, I suppose.
 

entropie

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I dont trust people who aint at least a bit weird
 

tinker683

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Closed minded, not really. Very rigid/straight laced/inflexible about how I do things or how I prefer to go about my life...yes I have been.

Of course, I know that for certain topics I have very deep seeded opinions and judgments made and it's going to take me a lot to budge but I don't consider that as being closed minded...just having a very strict criteria for getting me to change my mind ;)
 

entropie

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As long as you have the avenue to meet a new person without any fallacies, you're the boss. But who has that ? I do not and how could I, aint I supposed to interpret hell into people as an abstract thinker ? Yes I am and I'm doing it.

I dont think the key to understanding will be ending what one is good at, I think the key to understanding will be just understanding. Nothing better than when my best istj friends tells me "I know you're weird, but dont worry. I have your back."
 

Adasta

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There's a difference between close-mindedness and fierce loyalty, which is what I think SJs exhibit. This is why I like them, although ISTJs sometimes clash with me about my world-view (T vs. F) but they're so rational that they usually give up any angry tirade they may have.

I tend to "share" my close-mindedness with ISFJs because I relate to their dedication to a cause. In that way, I understand that it is not close-mindedness; it's more of an idealism. I've heard ISFJs say things "I would die for liberty" and, not to get too technical, I imagine their S makes them appear to be the standard-bearer of the ideal. From my perspective, ISFJs and INFPs are linked in their romantic desires to "realise" things. They remind me of this type of figure:

66612-004-0508DAB8.jpg

ISTJs seem also loyal in this regard but they seem to be forced/compelled to analyse all aspects of things. I can't see them as close-minded, but they are always resolute.
 

Nicodemus

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Here is how close-mindedness is bestowed upon decisive people:

A: Tell me the best redish color!
B: Orange.
A: Noted.
C: Green! I love green.
A: Green will not be taken into consideration.
C: Why the hell not?
A: Because it is not redish.
B: Well...
C: Wait a minute! I for one think it's very redish.
A: I am sorry, but: no.
C: Hey B, A is pretty close-minded for someone who is interested in color shades.
 
Last edited:

Kasper

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If you don't mind me butting in, there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views, and those who I know will always consider another point of view. The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ. Both have views on things, one will steadfastly hold onto what they've decided is their truth and in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer, the other will consider the human relationships aspect of hearing other people out without making black and white statements about what is true. This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too. Reliance on Te vs Fe may be the key.
 

Redbone

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Nowhere near being like an SJ but I have seen both. I have seen SJs that were horribly closed-minded...even after what you do/ideas turns out fine. The Way wasn't followed and it's all wrong because of that.

Then I've seen SJ who have been open-minded in the sense that they cared about the person the thought or idea was coming from (even if they personally saw it as being strange). It seems to be highly dependent of the environment the SJ was raised in.
 

Zarathustra

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If you don't mind me butting in, there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views, and those who I know will always consider another point of view. The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ. Both have views on things, one will steadfastly hold onto what they've decided is their truth and in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer, the other will consider the human relationships aspect of hearing other people out without making black and white statements about what is true. This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too. Reliance on Te vs Fe may be the key.

So you're calling TJs close-minded?
 

KDude

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My STJ friends are fairly open minded actually.. although a few of them tend to make fun of something outside the "norm" a bit in some stereotypical way (I wouldn't lay this at the feet of all SJs though). For example, a friend and I could be driving by some shaggy skater kids, and he's got to rant about something being wrong with kid's haircuts "these days". Another thing I've run into is some being pretty strict about policies in a workplace. There was one ISTJ girl (my boss actually) that I had a thing for, and at first she was open to it, until the higher ups got on her case about dating in the workplace. I could never get her to reconsider. Maybe it wasn't an SJ thing, but it kind of seems like it. Like she was too scared of breaking out of the structure once she was reminded of it. Pissed me off. :cool:
 

Zarathustra

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You say [my addition]:

Kasper said:
...there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views [i.e., "close-minded"], and those who I know will always consider another point of view [i.e., open-minded"]...

Then you say:

Kasper said:
The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ.

You then finish by saying:

Kasper said:
This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too.

Unless you want to claim that "closed to alternative views" does not mean "close-minded", or that "the difference" in the second quotation somehow doesn't refer to the difference that you had just enumerated in the sentence immediately preceding it, then I don't see how my reading would be inaccurate.
 

slowriot

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as other say its not about being close minded. We all have causes or principles where others can percieve of us as close minded. The general problem with SJs is how much effort you need to put into changing their minds. ie sjs being more rigid, stubborn about things.

Eventhough the "SJs are stubborn and rigid" is very metaphorical description there is a lot of truth to it. Its very much contributed to Si where you, rightfully, question if something new idea, method, really is worth it compared to the ideas methods you've used in the past.

Most of the time I think its generally communication issues. Im pretty sure if one came up with an argument where past methods/ideas where spoken of and how these methods have changed over the years, with specifics described. And how this new idea is better than those, most SJ's wouldnt rigidly go against it. But most people of NF/NT atleast dont really care that much about how it used to be at first, they look at the future and how this new method would be better for development and what is needed in the future.
 

Kasper

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You say [my addition]:

there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views [i.e., "close-minded"], and those who I know will always consider another point of view [i.e., open-minded"]...

Unless you want to claim that "closed to alternative views" does not mean "close-minded", or that "the difference" in the second quotation somehow doesn't refer to the difference that you had just enumerated in the sentence immediately preceding it, then I don't see how my reading would be inaccurate.

I know what I said, your misinterpretation is understandable, but quite wrong. Your additions is where you fucked up. The key is here:

in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer

TJs ime have gathered all the information they deem relevant at the time they make a decision on something, in order to convince them otherwise you need to have something to back up your view, having a "feeling", "antidote" or the likes will not change their perspective, you need something more solid than that. FJs have more flex when listening what you're saying possibly due to not wanting the other person to be uncomfortable. Hence the appearance of open or closed minded, I say nothing of them actually being open or closed minded. Challenging the view of a TJ can be quite fun as their resistance to anything grey pushes you to give greater evidence, of course it can also be downright annoying when they get caught up in specifics.
 

slowriot

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You say [my addition]:



Then you say:



You then finish by saying:



Unless you want to claim that "closed to alternative views" does not mean "close-minded", or that "the difference" in the second quotation somehow doesn't refer to the difference that you had just enumerated in the sentence immediately preceding it, then I don't see how my reading would be inaccurate.

why would one make a post that shows exactly what you say you are not?

If you don't mind me butting in, there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views, and those who I know will always consider another point of view. The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ. Both have views on things, one will steadfastly hold onto what they've decided is their truth and in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer, the other will consider the human relationships aspect of hearing other people out without making black and white statements about what is true. This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too. Reliance on Te vs Fe may be the key.

look at bolded.



edit: well lets just that I agree with Kasper, she said it better.
 
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