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[SJ] Fellow SJs: do people see you as "closed-minded"?

Zarathustra

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I thought you might use the "in my life" or "who I consider" defense, but I see you went with the "closed to alternative views" =/= "close-minded" one instead.

Interesting grey area there...
 

Giggly

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I find that when two people have different view points, they are often not open to the other viewpoint and equally unmovable about it, whether they call themselves liberals or intuitives or open-minded or whatever. Stubborn bull-headed people come in all forms, as do flexible open-minded people.
 

freeeekyyy

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I thought you might use the "in my life" or "who I consider" defense, but I see you went with the "closed to alternative views" =/= "close-minded" one instead.

Interesting grey area there...

And then you get "you're being closed-minded in challenging my observations of closed-mindedness." Damn Ti-ers. :D
 

Giggly

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I also want to add that often times people see SJs as "traditional" which means that they are not open to new ideas. But i assert that the people who are such big fans of new ideas also happen to be squarely against tradition. To the point where they sometimes get violent, insulting and extremely belligerent just because someone doesn't think the same way they do. So who is closed-minded?
 

ChocolateMoose123

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I also want to add that often times people see SJs as "traditional" which means that they are not open to new ideas. But i assert that the people who are such big fans of new ideas also happen to be squarely against tradition. To the point where they sometimes get violent, insulting and extremely belligerent just because someone doesn't think the same way they do. So who is closed-minded?

Good point. I have friends who fit in both categories very well.

It comes off as snobbishness in one group and stubbornness in the another.
 

Saslou

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I wouldn't say i am closed minded although i can be stubborn in my thinking when set on a particular goal .. I like possibilities as it means change is inevitable. I also like other points of view as i take a keen interest in people.
 

Southern Kross

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I think SJs often have very strong views on many things but this doesn't necessarily result in closed mindedness but then this goes for several other types.

Also many I know are against certain things in theory but do little to interfere with it in reality - in other words often they talk tough but really are 'live and let live' people.
 

IZthe411

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If you don't mind me butting in, there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views, and those who I know will always consider another point of view. The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ. Both have views on things, one will steadfastly hold onto what they've decided is their truth and in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer, the other will consider the human relationships aspect of hearing other people out without making black and white statements about what is true. This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too. Reliance on Te vs Fe may be the key.

Thanks for stating this..I know Ejcc is asking about SJs, but my question is always how it can be that certain traits are exclusive to any type. It's the combination of traits that make people prone to act a certain way, but everything that ultimately rolls into 'experience' determines your inner world and approach to the external.

That being said, as a pup yes I was close minded. Youthful ignorance played the biggest part, not type. As I came up, I realized that there's more than one way to get from point A to point B. Now, I may not fully understand or agree with them all, but I especially like to hear how others do it to help me improve on my own experience. Really, unless the life of me and mines is affected, it's not a big deal.
 

Redbone

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An SJ I know said that the true and tried way is followed because he's scared of making a mistake and he simply wants to achieve a goal in the best way possible. For him, the best way is the one that is able to get the goal...the way he knows. It simply doesn't make any sense to be open to take risks with other ways because he isn't sure if they will be effective. He doesn't see this as being close-minded but more as being sure.
 

EJCC

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Wow, so many good points! This thread makes me feel better about non-SJ attitudes. Way to be, guys! :wub:

*knock on wood*
 

wildcat

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I ask because that is SUCH an SJ stereotype, and I was curious to see whether the stereotype is valid or not. I know from my personal experience that I am NOT viewed as closed-minded, and no one has ever nagged at me for being closed-minded, AND, for that matter, closed-minded people can really irritate me.... but I don't want to judge all SJs based on my own experience.

I don't mean for this to be a hate thread, or a <3 thread, for that matter... I'm simply curious. It's an opportunity to either enforce or break a stereotype, and why pass that opportunity up?

So what are your thoughts, fellow Guardians?

I have only good memories of ESTJs. Some of the best people, really.
Closed-minded? Come on.
The most closed-minded people are the INTPs. I am ashamed to admit it. Read INTPc.

An ESTJ picked me from street, in Vienna, 1968. I was homeless.
One day he said: You are closed-minded. I want you to be open.

I came by. Lessons are hard learned.
 

Sil

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I ask because that is SUCH an SJ stereotype, and I was curious to see whether the stereotype is valid or not. I know from my personal experience that I am NOT viewed as closed-minded, and no one has ever nagged at me for being closed-minded, AND, for that matter, closed-minded people can really irritate me.... but I don't want to judge all SJs based on my own experience.

I don't mean for this to be a hate thread, or a <3 thread, for that matter... I'm simply curious. It's an opportunity to either enforce or break a stereotype, and why pass that opportunity up?

So what are your thoughts, fellow Guardians?

I'm specifically known for not being close-minded. As a result, I'm usually the first person my friends come to when they have something sensitive they want to discuss.

However, this wasn't an inborn trait. It had to be learned, through lots and lots of fucking hard work and many failed runs.

There are still areas where I am definitely not the most open-minded person. But being highly self-aware of this and knowing how to manage it around others is what gives me a lot of my power.
 

Yama

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Yes, but only family members who are upset that I don't conform to their conservative ideologies. They see my disagreement with them as being close-minded. Probably because they dont see the thought process that happens under the surface before I come to my conclusions.
 

cascadeco

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I shall speak on behalf of some SJ's I know. :) My two ISxJ parents, my ESTJ boss, and my ESTJ cousin. I think they are all pretty open-minded, to be honest. However they all come across as pretty opinionated and I would say very *Solid* in what they think and believe in. They're definitely open to new info/ perspectives, though. Perhaps it's the solidity that makes some people think they are close-minded?
 

Sil

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I shall speak on behalf of some SJ's I know. :) My two ISxJ parents, my ESTJ boss, and my ESTJ cousin. I think they are all pretty open-minded, to be honest. However they all come across as pretty opinionated and I would say very *Solid* in what they think and believe in. They're definitely open to new info/ perspectives, though. Perhaps it's the solidity that makes some people think they are close-minded?

I think you've hit upon where the perceived close-mindedness in SJ types comes from; it's not that they're not open to new ideas, but that they have strong, solid opinions they aren't afraid to back down from.
 

ceecee

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I shall speak on behalf of some SJ's I know. :) My two ISxJ parents, my ESTJ boss, and my ESTJ cousin. I think they are all pretty open-minded, to be honest. However they all come across as pretty opinionated and I would say very *Solid* in what they think and believe in. They're definitely open to new info/ perspectives, though. Perhaps it's the solidity that makes some people think they are close-minded?

Yes that may be why. I'm not close minded. I do have opinions on things that work and things that don't but new ideas and concepts - bring them on. Even if I had a strongly held belief, I would certainly change it if evidence supported a change.
 

Dreamer

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My two best friends are both ISFJs and I wouldn't call them close-minded by a long shot. Comfortable and set in their ways, ya, more so that ends up being the case. So with our relationship, it usually ends up being where I open them up to new ideas and experiences, but you can be sure, that they are very willing to branch out and go on adventures with me :D I find that my friends can sometimes just use that little nudge to try new things. Now, speaking closed-minded with regards to values and beliefs, eh it's a toss up. They tend to require more facts and evidence before convincing them of an alternate perspective than say, it does for me.

But no, I don't feel SJs are closed-minded :newwink:
 

Porter

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I ask because that is SUCH an SJ stereotype, and I was curious to see whether the stereotype is valid or not. I know from my personal experience that I am NOT viewed as closed-minded, and no one has ever nagged at me for being closed-minded, AND, for that matter, closed-minded people can really irritate me.... but I don't want to judge all SJs based on my own experience.

I don't mean for this to be a hate thread, or a <3 thread, for that matter... I'm simply curious. It's an opportunity to either enforce or break a stereotype, and why pass that opportunity up?

So what are your thoughts, fellow Guardians?

Only when I have formed an opinion, will people say that, and that is only when they want to change my mind.
 

LavenderSoda

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I hear this mostly from people who would define themselves as unconventional. It isn't that sort of natural unconventionality; but that sort of flamboyant ''I'm seeking for attention and validation'' type. I find that annoying because they are purposely trying to disrupt the atmosphere of others. I also find that misleading. The way it is misleading is that when people whom are naturally unconventional tend to denounce that part of themselves because those flamboyant ''transgenders'' or flamboyant humans decided to adopt the word as their own. I am not traditional: but in the Myers Briggs world you either are a traditional/close minded doormat or a free-spirited transgender. I think the Myers Briggs should be tweaked a little informational wise. I see where she was going there and I have applied this theory to reality and it has worked; but I feel like there has been some information that hasn't been talked about. I am often told that I am closed-minded because I don't believe in what this generation believes. I believe in how things used to be and I feel like they need to set some laws in place so that way nobody gets hurt.
 

Smilephantomhive

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I hear this mostly from people who would define themselves as unconventional. It isn't that sort of natural unconventionality; but that sort of flamboyant ''I'm seeking for attention and validation'' type. I find that annoying because they are purposely trying to disrupt the atmosphere of others. I also find that misleading. The way it is misleading is that when people whom are naturally unconventional tend to denounce that part of themselves because those flamboyant ''transgenders'' or flamboyant humans decided to adopt the word as their own. I am not traditional: but in the Myers Briggs world you either are a traditional/close minded doormat or a free-spirited transgender. I think the Myers Briggs should be tweaked a little informational wise. I see where she was going there and I have applied this theory to reality and it has worked; but I feel like there has been some information that hasn't been talked about. I am often told that I am closed-minded because I don't believe in what this generation believes. I believe in how things used to be and I feel like they need to set some laws in place so that way nobody gets hurt.

I hopersonally you know tat transgenders are not trying to be cute and unconventional. It is a real problem to not fit the gender you were assigned to.
 
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