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  1. #11
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Nowhere near being like an SJ but I have seen both. I have seen SJs that were horribly closed-minded...even after what you do/ideas turns out fine. The Way wasn't followed and it's all wrong because of that.

    Then I've seen SJ who have been open-minded in the sense that they cared about the person the thought or idea was coming from (even if they personally saw it as being strange). It seems to be highly dependent of the environment the SJ was raised in.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    If you don't mind me butting in, there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views, and those who I know will always consider another point of view. The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ. Both have views on things, one will steadfastly hold onto what they've decided is their truth and in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer, the other will consider the human relationships aspect of hearing other people out without making black and white statements about what is true. This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too. Reliance on Te vs Fe may be the key.
    So you're calling TJs close-minded?

  3. #13
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So you're calling TJs close-minded?
    No. Reread.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    No. Reread.
    Sorry, you're saying TJs tend to be close-minded.

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    My STJ friends are fairly open minded actually.. although a few of them tend to make fun of something outside the "norm" a bit in some stereotypical way (I wouldn't lay this at the feet of all SJs though). For example, a friend and I could be driving by some shaggy skater kids, and he's got to rant about something being wrong with kid's haircuts "these days". Another thing I've run into is some being pretty strict about policies in a workplace. There was one ISTJ girl (my boss actually) that I had a thing for, and at first she was open to it, until the higher ups got on her case about dating in the workplace. I could never get her to reconsider. Maybe it wasn't an SJ thing, but it kind of seems like it. Like she was too scared of breaking out of the structure once she was reminded of it. Pissed me off.

  6. #16
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sorry, you're saying TJs tend to be close-minded.
    Nope. Still missed it.

  7. #17
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    You say [my addition]:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper
    ...there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views [i.e., "close-minded"], and those who I know will always consider another point of view [i.e., open-minded"]...
    Then you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper
    The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ.
    You then finish by saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper
    This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too.
    Unless you want to claim that "closed to alternative views" does not mean "close-minded", or that "the difference" in the second quotation somehow doesn't refer to the difference that you had just enumerated in the sentence immediately preceding it, then I don't see how my reading would be inaccurate.

  8. #18
    He who laughs
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    as other say its not about being close minded. We all have causes or principles where others can percieve of us as close minded. The general problem with SJs is how much effort you need to put into changing their minds. ie sjs being more rigid, stubborn about things.

    Eventhough the "SJs are stubborn and rigid" is very metaphorical description there is a lot of truth to it. Its very much contributed to Si where you, rightfully, question if something new idea, method, really is worth it compared to the ideas methods you've used in the past.

    Most of the time I think its generally communication issues. Im pretty sure if one came up with an argument where past methods/ideas where spoken of and how these methods have changed over the years, with specifics described. And how this new idea is better than those, most SJ's wouldnt rigidly go against it. But most people of NF/NT atleast dont really care that much about how it used to be at first, they look at the future and how this new method would be better for development and what is needed in the future.

  9. #19
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You say [my addition]:

    there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views [i.e., "close-minded"], and those who I know will always consider another point of view [i.e., open-minded"]...
    Unless you want to claim that "closed to alternative views" does not mean "close-minded", or that "the difference" in the second quotation somehow doesn't refer to the difference that you had just enumerated in the sentence immediately preceding it, then I don't see how my reading would be inaccurate.
    I know what I said, your misinterpretation is understandable, but quite wrong. Your additions is where you fucked up. The key is here:

    in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer
    TJs ime have gathered all the information they deem relevant at the time they make a decision on something, in order to convince them otherwise you need to have something to back up your view, having a "feeling", "antidote" or the likes will not change their perspective, you need something more solid than that. FJs have more flex when listening what you're saying possibly due to not wanting the other person to be uncomfortable. Hence the appearance of open or closed minded, I say nothing of them actually being open or closed minded. Challenging the view of a TJ can be quite fun as their resistance to anything grey pushes you to give greater evidence, of course it can also be downright annoying when they get caught up in specifics.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You say [my addition]:



    Then you say:



    You then finish by saying:



    Unless you want to claim that "closed to alternative views" does not mean "close-minded", or that "the difference" in the second quotation somehow doesn't refer to the difference that you had just enumerated in the sentence immediately preceding it, then I don't see how my reading would be inaccurate.
    why would one make a post that shows exactly what you say you are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    If you don't mind me butting in, there are SJs in my life I do consider closed to alternative views, and those who I know will always consider another point of view. The difference tends to come down to STJ vs SFJ. Both have views on things, one will steadfastly hold onto what they've decided is their truth and in order to convince them otherwise you will have to be ironclad in your proof of an alternate answer, the other will consider the human relationships aspect of hearing other people out without making black and white statements about what is true. This pattern crosses over into NTJ vs NFJ too. Reliance on Te vs Fe may be the key.
    look at bolded.



    edit: well lets just that I agree with Kasper, she said it better.

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