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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Can you clarify why Jung felt all introverted functions tapped into a "collective" unconscious? Oddly I totally get that Ni does this, although I dont understand it. You end up with repeated symbols. I sorta can poke around and understand perhaps how we might form Ti and Fi although I dont get how they connect to a collective unconscious. They seemed to be some sort of primordial glue that gets molded, but The Xi dom understanding is likely much more clear. So how does Si actually form and connect to a collective past?

    I sometimes wonder, (prepare for blasphemy) since Jung was an INTJ, with Si as his own least understood function-would he be able to clearly explain what Si is without contaminating that understanding with his own understanding of Ni? I have no idea.

    (I admit utter laziness, blatant speculation, and shall go wonder off and reread the Si section in PT now.)
    Hm...I think Jung is INTP, but that's another thread

    Okay, tangent time...

    My understanding of the collective unconscious (which is a bit hazy) is that it's a sort of inherited knowledge, something like psychological instincts (as opposed to physiological instincts). I believe Jung uses this theory to defend the validity of the introverted viewpoint. Extroverted functions have a connection to reality, so that they are validated by objects verifiable by others. The introvert does not have this, but they do have a closer access to the collective unconscious which gives some weight to their perspective/judgment; it's not just arbitrary memory or values or logic or future vision, but there's a universal aspect to the concepts behind them, concepts which are recognized by others as true, even if not easily verified by anything tangible. I think this is why people may say introverts are "deep" where extroverts are "broad".

    To quote a humorous part of Psychological Types (which I featured in my blog recently, because it made me laugh for a good minute):

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    Thus, just as it seems incomprehensible to the introvert that the object should always be the decisive factor, it remains an enigma to the extrovert how a subjective standpoint can be superior to the objective situation. He inevitably comes to the conclusion that the introvert is either a conceited egoist or a crack-brained bigot.
    The extrovert may have trouble seeing the validity of introvert's thoughts. You see this all the time, where the introverted functions are criticized for their "subjectivity" as if subjectivity was somehow inferior, and not an important part of understanding the world. I notice this is often done from those with the same function in the opposite attitude; ie. Te & Ti or Ne & Ni. I think the introvert can devalue the extrovert view as "shallow" sometimes too; but more often, I think they are complementary .

    Okay, now how this relates to Si is there is supposedly an instinctive awareness of what has been in the past, beyond the individual's own experience. This awareness makes the Si-dom gravitate towards images of the past. Hence, the association of Si with tradition and history. Their Je function will judge the significance of these perceptions, and will seek to protect that which may violate an awareness of what people have needed or what has worked down through time.

    Ni, devalues these images of the past, preferring to see what they imply in regards to the future, as opposed to their direct meaning; in that sense, symbols are formed from these impressions. Ni has a synthesized vision of what will be, as opposed to what has been. So Si prefers the literal where Ni prefers the symbolic.

    In a similar way, Se sees the object for what it is, and Ne sees what it implies indirectly, or could be, or the concept it connects to. So Se sees the outer object, and Si sees the inner object. Ne sees what the outer object implies, and Ni sees what the inner object implies, indirectly. From what I gather, the source of the inner object is partly the collective unconscious, but just as extroverts may all interpret the external object differently, so this will be interpreted differently by the introvert. Of course, in reality, no one thinks with just one function, so introverts also have their dom function influenced by their extroverted aux function.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #22
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    I'm kind of semi-professional game designer (or atleast a wannabe ), and I've noticed a pattern how I process and generate new ideas. I think it's Si I'm using, helped with Te.

    When I'm required to do some designing, you usually start with categorizing every aspect I know. For example, if I'd be required to create a new card to a collectible card game (such as Pokemon or Magic: The Gathering), I'd start with listing all the variables available in the game. Then I'll look which variables have already been meddled with previously. And then I either take an old effect, and twist it into an opposite one (like damage would be replaced with healing), or I add a condition/trigger to it. Event X happens only if variable Y is Z. Or, I just find a new variable to meddle with.

    But basically what I do, is that I systematically list everything I have in front of my, and then look out for something that isn't there. This works for me very well, since I can produce quite a few new ideas based on the old ones. The con of the system is that it requires something to be based on. Usually this isn't a problem, because by combining previously designed ideas together you can generate a whole lot of ideas. But it gets problematic when I'm out there in the vast seas of unknown. Like Nintendo Wii's controllers were probably created with Ne, but similar systems for Xbox360 and PS3 were probably created with Si.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggletron View Post
    I see Si as the opposite of Ne in the sense it seeks continuity and stability. Si is very left-hemisphere and analytical, I think that gets overlooked sometimes as cheesy tradition or those halloween shirts your elementary teachers wore with all the stupid glitter pumpkins, black cats, and bats on them. You know what I mean? Si keeps things consistent and rooted and it makes your analytical and categorizing brain happy. I'm not an Si-dom, but people who suck at Si can't mess with the stuff my Si gets obsessed about. My ENFP friend is absolute shit at using his Si and it would sometimes annoy the hell out of me. lol
    Yeah I think Si can actually be very left-brained and analytical, too, it's not just about "tradition." I talk to an Si dom a lot and I've noticed he's very good with sensible, practical details, and is also hesitant to make opinionated arguments with some kind of proof to back it up...that is, if he's being serious.

    I use a ton of Si, but not like an SJ would. I was even told at one point my posts on the forum seem more INFP than ENFP because I pay closer attention to structure and detail. I also enjoy memories a lot, and have a strong sense of history. One of the reasons that I'm so interested in historic preservation is because I feel that the world is moving forward too fast and that there's some things about the past that must be preserved, and I even think some things about tradition are superior...just because it's new doesn't mean it's "better." I also have this weird, latent need for structure and order, although I feel hemmed in under too much scheduling and structure.

    I tend to romanticize the thinking of the Modern Period versus our more Post-Modern mindset for this reason. However, just because I romanticize about it doesn't mean I'd actually operate better under that kind of societal structure. In some ways I probably would not, but the idea of it makes me feel very safe.

  4. #24
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Is it viable to say that Si teamed up with Fe is more driven to what most would consider tradition, while Si teamed up with Te is considered more consistency?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Is it viable to say that Si teamed up with Fe is more driven to what most would consider tradition, while Si teamed up with Te is considered more consistency?
    I personally would think this would be the case. Si/Te IME is more concerned with rigid order and schedules than Si/Fe.

    Though Si/Fe still wants it's own sense of order, I think Fe makes it more "flexible" to accomodate people...at least to an extent.

    Si/Fe is probably more idealistic about tradition, and "things should be this way". SFJs are idealistic in their own little way. STJs are more pragmatic and seem to be more driven.

    I think Si with Fi also might find a certain comfort in tradition, though not as much in a pronounced way as Si/Fe, which is probably more likely to prize tradition as the "ultimate" or unquestionably "right."

  6. #26
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Thanks, Marm. How far do you think Fe is willing to extend or let loose it's grip on traditions before it starts to revolt against that functions purpose (as far as my understanding which is to keep order among the group)? Would that person give up the tradition completely in order to keep everyone happy?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Thanks, Marm. How far do you think Fe is willing to extend or let loose it's grip on traditions before it starts to revolt against that functions purpose (as far as my understanding which is to keep order among the group)? Would that person give up the tradition completely in order to keep everyone happy?
    It depends on the Si dom/aux. Not all SFJs are "traditional" in the way you might think - the Fe just adds a deeper emotional coloring to their Si sense of continuity and ties to their personal and the collective past. I think the most important thing to keep in mind about Si/Fe is that it doesn't necessarily equal fundamentalist religion or holiday wreaths for every occasion. I know an ESFJ agnostic and an ISFJ atheist, and while the ESFJ has deep, deep emotional attachments to Halloween (spending it with his mother and his own personal interest) and always observes birthdays and Christmas and Valentine's with gifts, he's actually not extremely traditional about holidays in the way one would expect. Case in point, his preference for Halloween rather than Christmas, because that ties to his personal past.

    Si is such a personal function. While it does often show up in Si/Fe types with more conservative or simply "old fashioned" morals, or at least the values that resemble what they grew up with, it doesn't mean that person is going to be a right wing Republican or force commercial holidays upon you, for example.

    Si also lends itself to structure as well as personal and collective past, so that also explains a leaning to more "conservative" values, simply because those values - at least in our culture - tend to be more linear and structured.

    Someone with Si/Fe can hang on to their personal traditions or sentiment or values with the same fierce tenacity as an NFP with their Fi, I've noticed, but just in a different way.

    Yes, Si/Fe thinks of others, and they will bend, but they aren't going to break something that they are strongly strongly attached to with Si or feel that is right or correct with Fe just to please other people, especially if their primary reference group is backing them. That is to say I think Fe values have more to do with primary reference group than the immediate group at hand. Do you know what I mean?

  8. #28
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Introverted functions are based on data that is taken in some form. S or N. For Si doms, the perceptive connection would be based on what they've both seen and experienced in the past. An N dom has to also start with past information taken in, but their connection more can more likely be based on something that wasn't included in the past.

    For both, the connection made may be clear to that person but it might not. When A Si dom is sure himself, when they can exactly pinpoint the 'memory', they are more confident. Credibility of the source also plays a large part as well. Si doms may also produce perceptions where they've seen it before, but may not be able to relate it exactly to something. That's where they struggle. That might also be why they appear to have good memories, since they rely so much on what they are sure they experienced instead of hunches. I think those instances where the memory isn't so clear could really be Ni, as the information coming together seems to come from out of nowhere; since their internal perceptions are so far apart, it's unlikely they use it much, if all, and any Ni flashes are immediately dismissed.

  9. #29
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Noon, I really liked your post...it was very informative.

    I am in awe of the detail that can be carried in memory. Jealous, too!

  10. #30
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    It does. Especially about fe being toward a reference group and not the tradition in general. I appreciate it. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    It depends on the Si dom/aux. Not all SFJs are "traditional" in the way you might think - the Fe just adds a deeper emotional coloring to their Si sense of continuity and ties to their personal and the collective past. I think the most important thing to keep in mind about Si/Fe is that it doesn't necessarily equal fundamentalist religion or holiday wreaths for every occasion. I know an ESFJ agnostic and an ISFJ atheist, and while the ESFJ has deep, deep emotional attachments to Halloween (spending it with his mother and his own personal interest) and always observes birthdays and Christmas and Valentine's with gifts, he's actually not extremely traditional about holidays in the way one would expect. Case in point, his preference for Halloween rather than Christmas, because that ties to his personal past.

    Si is such a personal function. While it does often show up in Si/Fe types with more conservative or simply "old fashioned" morals, or at least the values that resemble what they grew up with, it doesn't mean that person is going to be a right wing Republican or force commercial holidays upon you, for example.

    Si also lends itself to structure as well as personal and collective past, so that also explains a leaning to more "conservative" values, simply because those values - at least in our culture - tend to be more linear and structured.

    Someone with Si/Fe can hang on to their personal traditions or sentiment or values with the same fierce tenacity as an NFP with their Fi, I've noticed, but just in a different way.

    Yes, Si/Fe thinks of others, and they will bend, but they aren't going to break something that they are strongly strongly attached to with Si or feel that is right or correct with Fe just to please other people, especially if their primary reference group is backing them. That is to say I think Fe values have more to do with primary reference group than the immediate group at hand. Do you know what I mean?

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