[MBTI General] How far can N be improved?

[Lao]

Hello. I am new to this forum. I found the forum through googling about personalities and my specific personality ISTJ. Actually, I found the INTP sub-forum first and then found my way here.

I am an ISTJ. In college I majored in economics and mathematics. Within mathematics, though I earned good marks, I do not consider myself great at mathematics. To mathematicians, for example, real mathematics is in proving and creating new theorems (something which I was not great at). Real mathematics is not being able to solve textbook type problems (which I was great at). For the mathematicians out there, I was the guy in the back of the class who, after hearing the instructor introduce and speak on a new theorem, would shout: "Can you give us an example?"

I also had similar problems in philosophy class in understanding the abstract ideas. The only philosophy class I was good at was symbolic logic, which is just showing the truth or validity of arguments within the closed system of the rules of logic (something which I am good at -- operating within the closed system and following their rules).

Another example is computer science class, which I also did good in. However, I would never think of myself as a capable programmer because if I had to set up a system from scratch, I think I would probably freak out!

In short, I am a wannabe N. I want to be able to understand abstract ideas and theories without having have them be applicable in the real world. I want to be more than good at "operating within the system". I want to be able to create the systems as well. I want to understand the big picture and how it all fits together too. But I think this is very hard for an ISTJ since, from my reading, N is the weakest trait... Thank you...

 

[nozflubber]

then take more physics. I've almost a minor and i see what is likely a good % of SJs in many classes, I would guess primarily STJs. You guys have the perfect tools for formal physics in my opinion, Te for math and Si for making keen accurate observations, and you can get the abstraction over time just by observing - Ne works on observations as well as imaginations!

I believe Dalton is a good textbook case of an ISTJ who fully developed and excercised his Ne. Just sit around, and reflect, its good for you! You guys have a lot of potential in the physical sciences, and i'm saying that as an arrogant-minded NT here

 

[Lao]

then take more physics. I've almost a minor and i see what is likely a good % of SJs in many classes, I would guess primarily STJs. You guys have the perfect tools for formal physics in my opinion, Te for math and Si for making keen accurate observations, and you can get the abstraction over time just by observing - Ne works on observations as well as imaginations!

I believe Dalton is a good textbook case of an ISTJ who fully developed and excercised his Ne. Just sit around, and reflect, its good for you! You guys have a lot of potential in the physical sciences, and i'm saying that as an arrogant-minded NT here

You are right, you are right. But look at what you described. I need to look at the data and the observations first before understanding the theorems. This is not N at all!

 

[Lao]

Who's Dalton by the way?

 

[nozflubber]

john dalton was the founder of the modern theory of the atom. I am proposing he is ISTJ for heuristic purposes on what that might be like for ISTJs (develpoing N)

He basically developed his theories and ideas all off of his lifelong hobby of observation of weather patterns. he kept strict records of data and everything for like 20+ years. In other words, in MBTI land, you don't develop N... the N finds and develops YOU!!!

ITS A MONSTARRRR arrrr

 

[Andy]

An ISTJ has Ne, which is more about actively exploring new ideas and avenues of investigation than simply considering abstract ideas. To explore this way of relating to the world you should try experimenting with stuff, just to see if you can get it to work.

Have a look at this video at how to make impossible shapes, then try making some yourself. Why? Just to see if you can.

IMPOSSIBLE SOLIDS - Discovery of New 3D Optical Illusion -｜明治大学グローバルCOEプログラム 現象数理学の形成と発展

 

[PeaceBaby]

It might be reassuring to note as well that all through your life you'll be developing your function use, and Ne will come more naturally over time.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I would start by making associations between things that have no obvious relationship. Just remember to turn off your inner critic for a while when you do this, so the connections are stable long enough for you to form another conection with some other (seemingly unrelated) concept, and so on, until you find a connection that sparks you to explore it further.
Also, once you find an interesting connection, see if you can 'elevate' your perspective to see what the over-arching principle that defines the ralationship is.
It's hard for me to clarify this too much further. I'm very 'N' and this is how I tend to think.

 

[Lao]

I would start by making associations between things that have no obvious relationship. Just remember to turn off your inner critic for a while when you do this, so the connections are stable long enough for you to form another conection with some other (seemingly unrelated) concept, and so on, until you find a connection that sparks you to explore it further.
Also, once you find an interesting connection, see if you can 'elevate' your perspective to see what the over-arching principle that defines the ralationship is.
It's hard for me to clarify this too much further. I'm very 'N' and this is how I tend to think.

Can you give an example?

 

[Lao]

I guess my larger question is, how far am I limited by my ISTJ-ness for doing N type things?

If you look at the list of famous ISTJs, there are no great scientific or philosophical thinkers on the list...

If an ISTJ manages to get into Computer Science / Programming, usually he is not the one designing the complete system/program on the team. He is the one that operates within the existing code/structures -- like debugging or lower-level things like that...

I also still want to be able to think abstractly and understand the thinking of the great philosophers and scientists. ..

I don't want to just be good at operating within the system. I want to be able to think like N and look at things from multiple perspectives and see the big picture and be able to design from scratch...

If I was in IT/Computer Science, I wouldn't want to be relegated to doing the mop up work or low-level analysis...

 

[Aleksei]

I would say your best bet as an ISTJ trying to do creative work is to use Te to do it. Learn as much as you can about a given system or concept, and then see if you can spot any flaws that you can improve. If you wanna tap into your inner Ne, what you need to do is open your mind to what may seem fantastic or unrealistic, much like Nebbykoo just mentioned.

Can you give an example?

A fun Ne exercise I like to do is drawing parallels between disparate fictional characters whose personalities are similar. A good example of this in action can be found here.

 

[Synapse]

It might be reassuring to note as well that all through your life you'll be developing your function use, and Ne will come more naturally over time.

Yeah this.

And start meditating more often.

The more we mature, that is as the more our functions develop when we tap into other functions that are less defined. The applied experiences are then brought forward, which means that over time your going to express intuitively, your heart demands it.

 

[Lao]

Thank you for your replies. I will try some of your suggestions and report back in a while...

 

[Stanton Moore]

Lao,

I think what you really want to do is learn to think differently. Part of that will require you to jettison some of the cognitive structures that define your current modes of thought; for one, stop considering yourself as a type. Everytime you say 'I'm an ISTJ, and ISTJ's <INSERT STEREOTYPICAL BEHAVIOR HERE>', you limit what you believe is possible, and that intention will color your results. Just because you haven't done something before, doesn't mean that you can't do it!

 

[Lao]

Lao,

I think what you really want to do is learn to think differently. Part of that will require you to jettison some of the cognitive structures that define your current modes of thought; for one, stop considering yourself as a type. Everytime you say 'I'm an ISTJ, and ISTJ's <INSERT STEREOTYPICAL BEHAVIOR HERE>', you limit what you believe is possible, and that intention will color your results. Just because you haven't done something before, doesn't mean that you can't do it!

ok

 

[Craft]

I'm guessing you're probably not ISTJ. Either that, or you've entered the phase of "Inferior Intrigue", which is quite temporary and intermittent. EDIT: and normal but this doesn't seem to be the case.

My sister(ISFJ) is an example. She likes to deal in the abstract but never to this degree of actually pursuing the "potential of preference". If you are ISTJ, it is unnatural that you are behaving this way, it is also destructive. The primary question then centers on type verification. And behind that, a psychological unhealthy imbalance.

 

[Lao]

I'm guessing you're probably not ISTJ. Either that, or you've entered the phase of "Inferior Intrigue", which is quite temporary and intermittent.

My sister(ISFJ) is an example. She likes to deal in the abstract but never to this degree of actually pursuing the "potential of preference". If you are ISTJ, it is unnatural that you are behaving this way, it is also destructive. The primary question then centers on type verification. And behind that, a psychological unhealthy imbalance.

I've been thinking about that... I think you might be right. I've also had some personal problems in the past. I think these problems developed me into a person who liked to stick with structure and the familiar and the concrete and not think in the abstract... Well, I will ponder these things a little bit more and maybe come back to you. Thank you for your replies...

 

[Aleksei]

If you are ISTJ, it is unnatural that you are behaving this way, it is also destructive.

That's... the most fucking retarded thing I've heard on this site (and that's saying something). There's not only nothing wrong with exploring other functions, but exploring the inferior is, according to theory, a natural part of our development.

 

[Craft]

exploring the inferior is, according to theory, a natural part of our development.

It is, but I'm thinking this is entirely something else.

 

[Aleksei]

What do you think this is?