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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Good grief - I have said as much to people on several occasions. Your assessment above does indeed describe many INTJs, especially in the reasons for the observed behavior. We are polite to others in service to ourselves moreso than to them (Fi vs. Fe again).

    I agree overall with your assessment of ISTJs. Aside of my SO (INTP), the few people I would trust with my life have all been STJs.
    I admire it so much. I mean I think I almost have to end up marrying an IxTJ. It's totally irresistable to me that if I throw a fit someone is the "voice of reason" or doesn't break chracter from external motives ...however, I have to have an IxTJ with well-developed Fi who will in fact express emotion from their own internal self, though. I like "softer" IxTJs who aren't as dry (ISTJ) or robotic (INTJ) but have that Fi maturity that gives them a really subtle softness, and an ability express feelings when they feel safe, instead of trying to control EVERYTHING with Te. IxTJs who over-rely on Te or have really immature Fi are the bane of my existence. It's why I either tend to love or hate INTJs, and can be wildly attracted to some ISTJs and feel like others are so fucking boring I'd rather watch paint dry. It's intelligence, maturity, but it's also just Fi.

    I admire someone who has that level of self-control, especially when it's self rather than other's motivated, because to me that is like some pinnacle of masculine strength. I think I may feel this way because my father figure was an ISTJ.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    that would be like rolling dice, and blindly hoping for the good. you should really concentrate on seeing people for who they are cause otherwise youll end up like me, betrayed. trust isnt commodity which should be freely shared in this crazy world cause there are always people who abuse it.

    although i know entp's too have darkside like all types, i would still probably trust every entp i meet on my road with my full heart, but thats just cause they are my soul mate match so im not that cautious with them as im with others.
    I don't think you understand what I meant, but yes I was being rather vague: an ISTJ WILL DO THEIR DUTY. If their Fi is developed, they will stick to their morals like glue, the captain going down with the ship. You just pissed me off? I hate your behavior in this moment? I can't let you starve to death. You're my ______. (father, mother, lover, best friend, employee, responsibility). It's not that they care so much about not hurting your feelings, but that many of them would rather DIE than violate their own morals, not entirely unlike xxFPs. Except instead of discussing it or expressing it, they just DO IT.

    Do I think all ISTJs are good people? Of course not, I'm not sure what you take me for. And I like some ENTPs, it's not like I'm saying ENTPs are universally "bad."

    I just know that the ISTJ will do the "correct procedure" (Si/Te) and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me, he will do his best to go down with his proverbial ethical ship.

    My grandfather could be an unberable asshole, though I didn't see this much until my teens he was very sweet or just quiet for most of my childhood because he had this moral about children, but he always did right by me, as he saw fit.

    I've experienced the loyalty of an ISTJ man in my adult life, albeit too briefly, and I felt like something had dropped out of the floor beneath me when he was gone from my life, I can't imagine how much more devastated I would have been if we had grown closer.

    Even the ISTJ guy I've been seeing casually for a few months responds to everything with almost constant civil politeness and rationality, although I've seen his "human" side, he does get mad and irritated with other people and has let me down emotionally before, he has never once been anything but a perfect gentleman to me in his speech, even if I insult him. I'm sure he'd probably start to insult me more if he felt more comfortable with me and he had deeper feelings because then he'd start to break down, that's what happened with the first ISTJ, he seemed like he could take anything, and I was shocked the first time I actually REALLY HURT HIM, and he had an Fi shit-fit and was like "omg you whore you're meaner to me than anyone in the world" when he had up until that point pretty much let everything roll off him like water. But that kind of thing comes if they let you closer to their heart or something, but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be.

    It's just about finding an ISTJ with matching morals. Or better morals, lol.

  3. #73
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    perhaps but theres a clear difference between morality and amorality, and i do make the effort of showing them that i respect their view by adapting myself into what they think i should be, and i see this strategy has so far always brought good results. i think si fi and fi si love feels funny, and usually makes me think "ohh thats so silly and cute, you love me, AWW! <3 =]" which might seem aa' bit derogatory reaction to their affection.
    This is just deceiving both them and yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    then you better hope its one of the good istj's, cause theres equally much the abusive kind of istj's in this mad world who would just use you like a tool for their selfish twisted desires.
    This sounds more like INTJ. ISTJ is more likely to go overboard in support of some established framework or external value set (for example, Javert in Les Miserables).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I admire someone who has that level of self-control, especially when it's self rather than other's motivated, because to me that is like some pinnacle of masculine strength. I think I may feel this way because my father figure was an ISTJ.
    What about women who have these qualities? Does that detract from their femininity, or does their being female reduce your admiration for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I just know that the ISTJ will do the "correct procedure" (Si/Te) and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me, he will do his best to go down with his proverbial ethical ship.
    Yes, ISTJs (also ISFJ's?) tend to be very process oriented. Follow the right process, and the outcome has to be right as well. In other words, the means justify the ends. When I disagree with ISTJs, it is frequently over this.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    What about women who have these qualities? Does that detract from their femininity, or does their being female reduce your admiration for them?
    No I still admire them. I think my favorite mod currently on the forum is ISTJ. Love her calm consistency, just love it.

    I admire ISTJ females, but I don't tend to have the same kind of sexual idealization of ISTJ females; I like how strong TJ females come across though, it's very inspiring. I've always been a huge Hillary Clinton fan.

    Now I know right now that someone is going to tell me I'm an ENFP projecting an Si animus, I just know it.

    Yes, ISTJs (also ISFJ's?) tend to be very process oriented. Follow the right process, and the outcome has to be right as well. In other words, the means justify the ends. When I disagree with ISTJs, it is frequently over this.
    I have mixed feelings about it. Some times I appreciate so much that they can do this (when I can't, or have weakness in this area) and in others I'm like "GAH YOU ARE BEING SO IRRATIONAL, AND STOPPING THE BEST EFFICIENT END RESULT OR WHAT WOULD BRING ETHICAL HARMONY BECAUSE YOU ARE BLINDED BY SI!!!"

    But Si is irrational, just like all of the perceiving functions. That's just the way it happens to be irrational.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jstrazz View Post
    @Vilku I am curious, who is this sole person (ISTJ) that has so tainted your view of all ISTJ's? They must have done a number on you of incalculable damage as to leave you having such negative views of ISTJ's. You almost make it sound like ISTJ's are plotting to take over the world for their own selfish desires. I would encourage you to actively meet other ISTJ's, so that they can give you a clearer and hopefully more optimistic view of ISTJ's as a whole. Also be warned, INFJ's intuition and instincts about people may be useful and accurate a good portion of the time, but it is not foolproof, what you sense in others (in particular this ISTJ) may be quite different from what s/he is actually thinking/feeling/behaving as.
    several, but i have came across one good istj too, and several which i didnt get to know well enough to say.

    im still trying to find a way to view world in such a way where i dont have to go over huge lengths of efforts to understand Fi morals. (its like Fi's have a like bar for every person and depending where they fall on that decides the treatment, whereas we Fe's treat everyone equally. i just dont think its fair to do amoral actions on people just cause you thought on that moment that you didnt like them.)

    and yeah, im also trying to come in terms that my understanding/intuition is never final, even though it feels always so convincing.

    yep, i hope id meet some more of those good istj's in my road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I don't think you understand what I meant, but yes I was being rather vague: an ISTJ WILL DO THEIR DUTY. If their Fi is developed, they will stick to their morals like glue, the captain going down with the ship. You just pissed me off? I hate your behavior in this moment? I can't let you starve to death. You're my ______. (father, mother, lover, best friend, employee, responsibility). It's not that they care so much about not hurting your feelings, not entirely unlike xxFPs. Except instead of discussing it or expressing it, they just DO IT.

    Do I think all ISTJs are good people? Of course not, I'm not sure what you take me for. And I like some ENTPs, it's not like I'm saying ENTPs are universally "bad."

    I just know that the ISTJ will do the "correct procedure" (Si/Te) he will do his best to go down with his proverbial ethical ship.

    My grandfather could be an unberable asshole, though I didn't see this much until my teens he was very sweet or just quiet for most of my childhood because he had this moral about children, but he always did right by me, as he saw fit.

    I've experienced the loyalty of an ISTJ man in my adult life, albeit too briefly, and I felt like something had dropped out of the floor beneath me when he was gone from my life, I can't imagine how much more devastated I would have been if we had grown closer.

    Even the ISTJ guy I've been seeing casually for a few months responds to everything with almost constant civil politeness and rationality, although I've seen his "human" side, he does get mad and irritated with other people and has let me down emotionally before, he has never once been anything but a perfect gentleman to me in his speech, even if I insult him. I'm sure he'd probably start to insult me more if he felt more comfortable with me and he had deeper feelings because then he'd start to break down, that's what happened with the first ISTJ, he seemed like he could take anything, and I was shocked the first time I actually REALLY HURT HIM, and he had an Fi shit-fit and was like "omg you whore you're meaner to me than anyone in the world" when he had up until that point pretty much let everything roll off him like water. But that kind of thing comes if they let you closer to their heart or something,
    It's just about finding an ISTJ with matching morals. Or better morals, lol.
    ", but that many of them would rather DIE than violate their own morals"

    you know, thats not very helpful if they just simply dont have morals, or their morals are along the line "everyone is just material, so it doesnt matter what i do to them", aka atheism gone seriously wrong.

    " and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me," and if not, youre then just fine they do whatever they wish to you completely ignoring your wishes? i dont have time to befriend everyone, so i should expect other people to still treat me morally even when i lack the time to personally tend to them.

    thats the whole deal why Fi morals are annoyingly evil, cause if you arent their friend by an instant, they assume the opposite.

    " but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be."

    yeah its good as long as the istj has time to grow in a friendly environment so theyd develop one, but what about all the failed cases? im blind to what i think doesnt make rational sense, and immorality is something completely driven by emotion, thus im naturally blind to it until ive been hit by one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is just deceiving both them and yourself.



    "This sounds more like INTJ. ISTJ is more likely to go overboard in support of some established framework or external value set (for example, Javert in Les Miserables)."

    no, intj's are too wimpy to use other people for their desires, you wish you could but you were never made to be the one who takes action.

    what im talking about desires, are things like monetary and status gains, all the superficial of kind.

    bring me one intj who is able to realize their daydreams of using other people. thats right, intj's arent really capable of the evil they wish to be,or hopefully dont wish.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  6. #76
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    " and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me," and if not, youre then just fine they do whatever they wish to you completely ignoring your wishes? i dont have time to befriend everyone, so i should expect other people to still treat me morally even when i lack the time to personally tend to them.
    Yes, you should. And ISTJs are more likely than most to treat you exactly this way: to be fair, honest, even courteous regardless of their personal feelings for you, just because it is the right thing to do (agrees with whatever moral code they follow).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    " but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be."
    Yes, they will stick to it, whether you are friend, foe, or stranger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    no, intj's are too wimpy to use other people for their desires, you wish you could but you were never made to be the one who takes action.

    what im talking about desires, are things like monetary and status gains, all the superficial of kind.

    bring me one intj who is able to realize their daydreams of using other people. thats right, intj's arent really capable of the evil they wish to be,or hopefully dont wish.
    You seem to know INTJs even less than ISTJs. Most INTJs I know don't try to be evil, they just put the ends before the means more than most, and as a result can make assumptions about the actions and participation of others, regardless of the wishes of those people. This is because they are driven by some individual motivation (NiFi) rather than by some external standard of behavior (SiFi). In my experience of knowing many NTJs and STJs, it is usually the SJs who are telling the NTJs, "You can't do that because it goes against the rules, isn't how we do things around here, people won't like it" etc. The NTJ will usually reply, "I don't care about all that, I want results". Perhaps the INTJs I know are atypical, but we have been fairly successful at realizing our dreams. Using people is just incidental to that, and if we can remain aware and sensitive to that, we can keep it to a minimum.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #77
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You seem to know INTJs even less than ISTJs. Most INTJs I know don't try to be evil, they just put the ends before the means more than most, and as a result can make assumptions about the actions and participation of others, regardless of the wishes of those people. This is because they are driven by some individual motivation (NiFi) rather than by some external standard of behavior (SiFi). In my experience of knowing many NTJs and STJs, it is usually the SJs who are telling the NTJs, "You can't do that because it goes against the rules, isn't how we do things around here, people won't like it" etc. The NTJ will usually reply, "I don't care about all that, I want results". Perhaps the INTJs I know are atypical, but we have been fairly successful at realizing our dreams. Using people is just incidental to that, and if we can remain aware and sensitive to that, we can keep it to a minimum.
    This is an important point and when it comes to the, (suspected), INTJ's ive experienced, ive observed that the 'ends justify the means' isn't really intended with malicious intent, it's merely the product that their combination of functions tends to bring about.

    However with self awareness, as you have said, they are able to understand how others might misconstrue their goals with an intent in maliciousness. Which isn't to say there aren't INTJ's with intentionally ill aims, merely that most truly don't intend to come across that way, they just aren't focused on that angle of the situation.

    Hah it looks like ive just repeated your point for you, talk about lack of efficiency, (Te).
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post



    ", but that many of them would rather DIE than violate their own morals"

    you know, thats not very helpful if they just simply dont have morals, or their morals are along the line "everyone is just material, so it doesnt matter what i do to them", aka atheism gone seriously wrong.

    " and if s/he has any feelings of love or even moral responsibility to me," and if not, youre then just fine they do whatever they wish to you completely ignoring your wishes? i dont have time to befriend everyone, so i should expect other people to still treat me morally even when i lack the time to personally tend to them.

    thats the whole deal why Fi morals are annoyingly evil, cause if you arent their friend by an instant, they assume the opposite.

    " but the bottom line is that an ISTJ with well-developed Fi sticks to their moral guns, whatever they happen to be."

    yeah its good as long as the istj has time to grow in a friendly environment so theyd develop one, but what about all the failed cases? im blind to what i think doesnt make rational sense, and immorality is something completely driven by emotion, thus im naturally blind to it until ive been hit by one.
    Fi is a more subjective, internal method of morality building which means that some ISTJs may have morals that you disagree with, they aren't going to necessarily respond to the Fe of a particular group, community, or whatever.

    Yes, some ISTJs are crass or materialistic. They might walk around in their 300 dollar jeans or their expensive cologne, looking down their nose behind their sunglasses at you on the way out to their BMW to vaccuum it and polish it to perfection daily. They may tell your kids to get off of their fucking lawn or tennis court. They may care more about the end result in business than is tasteful to some people, but that's true of many Te types, not just ISTJs.

    All ISTJs aren't the same, of course. My grandfather was an old fashioned Southern man, the kind of hard-working, hard-ass ISTJ that has "good Christian morals" but exhibits very low actual forgiveness or kindness to strangers, saving his well-guarded feelings of empathy and loyalty to his family, who he'd sacrifice everything for, feeding them, protecting them, dressing them well, taking them on vacations, etc. Sure he was kind of a jerk, and he could be really intolerant of anything or anyone he saw as deviant, but I am not quite sure I could have asked for a more devoted father-figure, who also had the decency to give me space and privacy. When I was 25 years old he would still take me clothes shopping and buy my dinner, but tell me how I'd failed in this or that way on the ride home.

    Some ISTJs are really dull and unassuming, some are the bigoted old-fashioned workaholic hardass family men, some are scientists or doctors or lawyers, and some are health-conscious pretty boys with a stick up their ass.

    I never said they're all the same, but I've noticed that despite interests or culture, they have a really relieving consistency that is both physical and moral, whatever their morality happens to be, I didn't say every ISTJ would have a morality you'd agree with.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, you should. And ISTJs are more likely than most to treat you exactly this way: to be fair, honest, even courteous regardless of their personal feelings for you, just because it is the right thing to do (agrees with whatever moral code they follow).


    Yes, they will stick to it, whether you are friend, foe, or stranger.
    Exactly.

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