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  1. #61
    Member Jstrazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    rational? hardly, istj is the most common personality with emotional lying problems,(compulsive lying) ie inability not to lie because of emotional reasons. if theres an istj who doesnt have this problem, then they have my full respect.

    irrationality, i think its source is disintegration, and every type is equally liable to that.

    on other notes, i think sx so is the most rational minded of instincts.
    I am not sure where all of that came from, or if you had a really really bad experience with an ISTJ, but as an ISTJ myself who knows over 15 other ISTJ's I would say ISTJ's are not emotional in the least, and if they are they hide it and compartmentalize it. In addition, I have never known an ISTJ to lie, least of all compulsively lie. I think, given your standards, most of not all ISTJ's would receive your full respect.

    I don't compulsive lying, in and of itself a very negative attribute, can be awarded to any MBTI type. I think all of us have the potential to be either very rational or equally irrational. I do believe however, that some of us are predisposed to certain ways of thinking and visa-versus. Whereas the Enneagram and the MBTI have 9 and 16 options respectively, sx/so/sp are very few to make a broad generalization concerning who is and is not rational. In addition, rationality is not analogous to instinct. They complement each other in certain people and situations, but instincts and intuition are not the mark of rational thought or behavior.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Interesting. What does this mean?
    i think each instinct combo has their true philosophy or religion, meaning they have a natural way of gravitating to those even if they dont see it themselves. for sp sx its pessimism, so sp capitalism and superficialty, sx so rationalism, sx sp christianity, sp so common sense and so sx buddhism, taoism and hippieism.

    for me, as an sx so for example, before, the years 8 to 18 i thought all philosophies and religions were silly stupid, and without realizing my own philosophy at the times was that of intelligence and rationality, but now i realize it has always been that way because i gravitate to my natural instincts. even if i followed christianity, i still do my decisions concerning it because i think its the smart thing, and stupid to otherwise.

    i do see that each instinct has two other instincts beliefs/views which they find useful to themselves, although it will still all be done in a very way natural to your instincts. like for me delving into taoism which is so sx, but i do it slightly differently, in a more rational way cause im an sx so.

    for example, where they believe in reincarnation, i rationalize as simply all psychological settings being the same, where they believe in the collective unconscious, i rationalize as the survival of species by teamwork and unconscious communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstrazz View Post
    I am not sure where all of that came from, or if you had a really really bad experience with an ISTJ, but as an ISTJ myself who knows over 15 other ISTJ's I would say ISTJ's are not emotional in the least, and if they are they hide it and compartmentalize it. In addition, I have never known an ISTJ to lie, least of all compulsively lie. I think, given your standards, most of not all ISTJ's would receive your full respect.

    I don't compulsive lying, in and of itself a very negative attribute, can be awarded to any MBTI type. I think all of us have the potential to be either very rational or equally irrational. I do believe however, that some of us are predisposed to certain ways of thinking and visa-versus. Whereas the Enneagram and the MBTI have 9 and 16 options respectively, sx/so/sp are very few to make a broad generalization concerning who is and is not rational. In addition, rationality is not analogous to instinct. They complement each other in certain people and situations, but instincts and intuition are not the mark of rational thought or behavior.
    well then im very glad the rest of the world isnt as contaminated as the one ive been facing with.

    and yes i think istj's hide their emotionality, but to me its very apparent cause im intuitively attuned to these things. i think emotionality is what guides much of their standards, but maybe thats just cause im a Ti user so i observe them using Fi where i would be cold rational, so i perceive every bit of it as irrationality. like "norms", much of their norms are useless and irrational, only slowing down the pace of efficacy, which annoys me.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  3. #63
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    I trust ISTJs COMPLETELY with rationality and order; I actually think in some ways they seem more rational than INTJs, but only because they're mor e "earth bound" by Si.

    In truth neither INTJ nor ISTJ are truly "rational" but that's the Te face they typically show to most people. The Ni or Si inner world is actually their primary ego and point of perception. Ni and Si are both completely wacky for different reasons, people who don't realize just how wacky Si can be probably don't even realize that some of the "eccentric" or structured yet cool people they know are actually ISxJs.

    I view Te largely as being more rational in a lot of ways than Ti, but that's because of a personal preference, so I would tend to trust an ISTJ with my life probably before an ENTP, even though ENTP is called a "rational."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jstrazz View Post
    I am not sure where all of that came from, or if you had a really really bad experience with an ISTJ, but as an ISTJ myself who knows over 15 other ISTJ's I would say ISTJ's are not emotional in the least, and if they are they hide it and compartmentalize it. In addition, I have never known an ISTJ to lie, least of all compulsively lie. I think, given your standards, most of not all ISTJ's would receive your full respect.
    This is also my experience, they are similar to INTJs in that way; same with the "cold" politeness that's not really warm or Fe, but rather a self-control point of pride or a way of getting people to leave them alone. Propriety, I think it's called. I think propriety is actually very ISTJ.

    "I am quite sorry that you think I am a total bastard, but I hope you have a nice evening all the same" with not so much as a twitch.

    The thing is, though, I've been close enough to ISTJs to see them lose it. IxTJs can have Fi shit fits, especially with the people they've "let in" like family members, lovers, and very close friends.

    An ISTJ female once told me that I reminded her a lot of herself, except she keeps it all under control inside.

    I think that has something to do with Fi and its placement.

    ISTJs mostly seem "irrational" for typical Si dom reasons, such as "this isn't normal, we didn't meet in a normal expected way, so our relationship may not work!!"

    Stuff like that. Like irrationally perceiving things as right or wrong based upon their past experience or Si normative standards.

  5. #65
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    rational? hardly, istj is the most common personality with emotional lying problems,(compulsive lying) ie inability not to lie because of emotional reasons. if theres an istj who doesnt have this problem, then they have my full respect.

    irrationality, i think its source is disintegration, and every type is equally liable to that.

    on other notes, i think sx so is the most rational minded of instincts.
    I have known many ISTJs as friends and I dont see what you are describing-I suspect you are seeing reality, but the mistake is then projecting your own worldview and thought patterns onto the ISTJ leading to an incorrect interp of motive.

    ISTJs may be perceiveind to be lying for two reasons:

    1. I have seen them to recall what "should be true" logistically rather than what the specific truth was, especially if some time has elapsed. I would not this most in large project meetings, where an entp project manager would write down a decision made by the group, but a month (and a million thoughts) later, often the ISTJs would revert to what the "standard" decision should have been, not the actual decision. When reminded, they would go "Oh yeah, we did decide that." I attribute thei to Si having avery storng set of rules and it will overweight the occasinal Se deviance

    2. Emotionally they will reason with SiFi. They can be extremely intense, devoted and loving, but in a very tert Fi way, so it can be undeveloped Fi. Calling this immature or childlike is incorrect, as they are functionaling EXACTLY as they should, but it is Fi reasoning on a less developed scale that one would see in an Fi dom/aux. SiFi is rational, but in a way that will confound most Ti users, and in a way that can be incredibly concrete and difficult to change. To an external listener trying to understand, who doesnt understand the SiFi rules, it could appear very contridictory in nature. So not a lie, but simply a ruleset you are not privy to, which is used to generate a judgement.

    Quite funnily, I would suspect the ISTJs you are dealing with might feel that you are lying or being emotionally evasive in return, for the same types of reasons.

  6. #66
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This is also my experience, they are similar to INTJs in that way; same with the "cold" politeness that's not really warm or Fe, but rather a self-control point of pride or a way of getting people to leave them alone. Propriety, I think it's called. I think propriety is actually very ISTJ.

    "I am quite sorry that you think I am a total bastard, but I hope you have a nice evening all the same" with not so much as a twitch.
    Good grief - I have said as much to people on several occasions. Your assessment above does indeed describe many INTJs, especially in the reasons for the observed behavior. We are polite to others in service to ourselves moreso than to them (Fi vs. Fe again).

    I agree overall with your assessment of ISTJs. Aside of my SO (INTP), the few people I would trust with my life have all been STJs.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #67
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have known many ISTJs as friends and I dont see what you are describing-I suspect you are seeing reality, but the mistake is then projecting your own worldview and thought patterns onto the ISTJ leading to an incorrect interp of motive.

    ISTJs may be perceiveind to be lying for two reasons:

    1. I have seen them to recall what "should be true" logistically rather than what the specific truth was, especially if some time has elapsed. I would not this most in large project meetings, where an entp project manager would write down a decision made by the group, but a month (and a million thoughts) later, often the ISTJs would revert to what the "standard" decision should have been, not the actual decision. When reminded, they would go "Oh yeah, we did decide that." I attribute thei to Si having avery storng set of rules and it will overweight the occasinal Se deviance

    2. Emotionally they will reason with SiFi. They can be extremely intense, devoted and loving, but in a very tert Fi way, so it can be undeveloped Fi. Calling this immature or childlike is incorrect, as they are functionaling EXACTLY as they should, but it is Fi reasoning on a less developed scale that one would see in an Fi dom/aux. SiFi is rational, but in a way that will confound most Ti users, and in a way that can be incredibly concrete and difficult to change. To an external listener trying to understand, who doesnt understand the SiFi rules, it could appear very contridictory in nature. So not a lie, but simply a ruleset you are not privy to, which is used to generate a judgement.
    you know, im talking about people who are messed in a web of lies who themselves know this is bad yet they cant choose otherwise because of the emotional attachment to lying. and those who do this but havent yet got to the point where the web is too over whelming so they think its fine to be amoral.

    "Quite funnily, I would suspect the ISTJs you are dealing with might feel that you are lying or being emotionally evasive in return, for the same types of reasons."

    perhaps but theres a clear difference between morality and amorality, and i do make the effort of showing them that i respect their view by adapting myself into what they think i should be, and i see this strategy has so far always brought good results. i think si fi and fi si love feels funny, and usually makes me think "ohh thats so silly and cute, you love me, AWW! <3 =]" which might seem aa' bit derogatory reaction to their affection.

    im fine with istj's who encourage people to get through their emotional blocks with verbal skills, as long as it remains in the side where its done for the benefit of receiver, not the self.

    but every one of those who do it for the self corrupt the image of them all.

    and i do am aware that istj's perceive the means as elusive while the results as concrete, this making their stance whether its for the self or not as emphasized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I view Te largely as being more rational in a lot of ways than Ti, but that's because of a personal preference, so I would tend to trust an ISTJ with my life probably before an ENTP, even though ENTP is called a "rational."
    then you better hope its one of the good istj's, cause theres equally much the abusive kind of istj's in this mad world who would just use you like a tool for their selfish twisted desires.

    that would be like rolling dice, and blindly hoping for the good. you should really concentrate on seeing people for who they are cause otherwise youll end up like me, betrayed. trust isnt commodity which should be freely shared in this crazy world cause there are always people who abuse it.

    although i know entp's too have darkside like all types, i would still probably trust every entp i meet on my road with my full heart, but thats just cause they are my soul mate match so im not that cautious with them as im with others.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  8. #68
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    I am close with an ISTJ. He hyper-rational.

  9. #69
    Member Jstrazz's Avatar
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    @Vilku I am curious, who is this sole person (ISTJ) that has so tainted your view of all ISTJ's? They must have done a number on you of incalculable damage as to leave you having such negative views of ISTJ's. You almost make it sound like ISTJ's are plotting to take over the world for their own selfish desires. I would encourage you to actively meet other ISTJ's, so that they can give you a clearer and hopefully more optimistic view of ISTJ's as a whole. Also be warned, INFJ's intuition and instincts about people may be useful and accurate a good portion of the time, but it is not foolproof, what you sense in others (in particular this ISTJ) may be quite different from what s/he is actually thinking/feeling/behaving as.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Good grief - I have said as much to people on several occasions. Your assessment above does indeed describe many INTJs, especially in the reasons for the observed behavior. We are polite to others in service to ourselves moreso than to them (Fi vs. Fe again).

    I agree overall with your assessment of ISTJs. Aside of my SO (INTP), the few people I would trust with my life have all been STJs.
    I admire it so much. I mean I think I almost have to end up marrying an IxTJ. It's totally irresistable to me that if I throw a fit someone is the "voice of reason" or doesn't break chracter from external motives ...however, I have to have an IxTJ with well-developed Fi who will in fact express emotion from their own internal self, though. I like "softer" IxTJs who aren't as dry (ISTJ) or robotic (INTJ) but have that Fi maturity that gives them a really subtle softness, and an ability express feelings when they feel safe, instead of trying to control EVERYTHING with Te. IxTJs who over-rely on Te or have really immature Fi are the bane of my existence. It's why I either tend to love or hate INTJs, and can be wildly attracted to some ISTJs and feel like others are so fucking boring I'd rather watch paint dry. It's intelligence, maturity, but it's also just Fi.

    I admire someone who has that level of self-control, especially when it's self rather than other's motivated, because to me that is like some pinnacle of masculine strength. I think I may feel this way because my father figure was an ISTJ.

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