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  1. #31
    small potatoes NotOfTwo's Avatar
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    I do not find SJs to be objective in their reasoning and so do not consider them rationals.

  2. #32
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    The tradition-loving, conservative, stereotypical shitbag ISTJ's are being described as is equally unseemly as it is incorrect. It should have been put up in front of the firing squad a eons ago.

  3. #33
    Senior Member bcubchgo's Avatar
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    I don't think so. pragmatic, analytical, and logical? yes. But the difference (on the whole) for a rational would be to focus on improvement, to remain even tempered, and to focus on abstractions being applied in a useful manner, none of which are specific to an ISTJ. It's been my experience that the average ISTJ does not always take into account optimization, other people's concerns or emotions, or patterns of thought that require non-linear approaches. Don't get me wrong there certainly is a value in both approaches, I just think that many ISTJ's do what could be construed as "irrational" things because they are unwilling to find value in experiences beyond their knowledge, sometimes are quite rough around the edges with others who disagree with them, and at times, unnecessarily obstinate. Being logically oriented can be valuable, of course, but experimentation and inquisitiveness that comes naturally to an "N" is something that needs to be interjected into the process to observe the world from a perspective that does not necessarily come with a bias. Still, I enjoy listening to an ISTJ (as long as their opinion is not being forced on me) because I think their particular brand of detailed insight can be helpful to isolate important ideas.
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  4. #34
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Depends on what "rational" means. Shit, even science isn't rational in its most absolute meaning.

    This NT="rational" thing made by Keirsey(I think) is inaccurate. Nevertheless, it should at least be taken as "NT's are more into abstract logic". ISTJ's are more "sensible".

    If we're talking rational=smart, I don't know.

    If we're talking rational=into abstract theories, no.

    Argh, it's too relative...

  5. #35
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    This is my understanding at this point: ISTJs are rationalistic, but are more likely to require concrete proof. Their process would be based more on deriving theory from evidence rather than starting with the hypothesis/theory and using experiment to prove it. This aligns well with the scientific method. For a fun example, Scully from the X-files is an example of STJ rationality played off against an iNtuitive Mulder. In that context she shows the assumption that there is a logical explanation for everything and this can be demonstrated concretely. The NT rationality has an interesting twist because of the combination of linear logic with the iNtuitive realm. You can get a wider range of outcomes from people who identify as such because that combination makes it more possible to create an internally logical and consistent system that simply doesn't map to reality. In such a case it is not rationality, but a logically consistent irrationality.

    I've had family members, usually women of the previous generation, who were ISTJs. They were practical, consistent, and reasonable in most ways. What struck me in their specific cases was an incredible underlying imaginative power that remained mostly hidden to others, but if you knew them long enough, you could glimpse it. In these cases it would reveal itself in storytelling and literature. By MBTI measures and in day-to-day life they would be rather hard-core ISTJs.
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  6. #36
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    The rational definition is very irrational and subject to interpretation, made to fit the argument at hand.

    I operate rationally, I just like something to concrete to relate it to.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    I don't think so. pragmatic, analytical, and logical? yes. But the difference (on the whole) for a rational would be to focus on improvement, to remain even tempered, and to focus on abstractions being applied in a useful manner, none of which are specific to an ISTJ. It's been my experience that the average ISTJ does not always take into account optimization, other people's concerns or emotions, or patterns of thought that require non-linear approaches. Don't get me wrong there certainly is a value in both approaches, I just think that many ISTJ's do what could be construed as "irrational" things because they are unwilling to find value in experiences beyond their knowledge, sometimes are quite rough around the edges with others who disagree with them, and at times, unnecessarily obstinate. Being logically oriented can be valuable, of course, but experimentation and inquisitiveness that comes naturally to an "N" is something that needs to be interjected into the process to observe the world from a perspective that does not necessarily come with a bias. Still, I enjoy listening to an ISTJ (as long as their opinion is not being forced on me) because I think their particular brand of detailed insight can be helpful to isolate important ideas.
    I like this post a lot. Many times others have told me "That just doesn't make sense!" (e.g. not accepting invitations to a party, refusing a "free lunch" at work and buying my own, etc.) and in their view my actions or decisions were not rational. The unwillingness to try new things seems irrational to some, but the security derived from sticking with what works - is rational to others.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    Yes, ISTJs are very much rational beings. I think that any TJ is.
    It seems to me that preferences for introversion and thinking are a much better setup for logical thought processes than preferences just for thinking and judging. I would take INTJ and ISTJ over ENTJ and ESTJ in the rationality department any day. For that matter, I would also take INTP and ISTP over ENTJ and ESTJ as well, which leads me to my next point, that being, how has nobody mentioned ISTP?

    ISTP, for all I have seen and reasoned, is in actuality a very logical type. Hell, they get termed titles such as "Problem Solvers" and "Analyzer Operaters" as well as "Mechanics". What do ESTJs get to be called? Oh ya, they get the grand titles of "Supervisors" or "Bosses". I'd wager half the public school principles in the nation could be ESTJ, and they appear to be some of the most closed-minded and illogical as well as just dang freaking retarded people I have ever encountered!

    It is for these reasons, among others, that I would take preferences for "IT" over "TJ" when it comes to being considered a rational type. Of course people, including myself, can think whatever they want to. ENTPs can at least come before ESTPs, and ENTJs can at least come before ESTJs too, I'd wager, but I would also take "IT", like ISTP and ISTJ over "ET" like ENTJ and ENTP too and please, if anyone here disagrees with my judgments on who's smarter here, don't hesitate to challenge my claims. I love a good fight!

  9. #39
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ So, just to be clear... your point is that Ti is more rational than Te, and Te-second is more rational than Te-first?
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  10. #40
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    Ah yes, a challenge!

    Some of that stuff I just said for the sake of being a dick, and it was good fun too.

    Also, although I believe in the existence of functions, I have found that if we start obsessing over them too much, we begin to lose touch with the overall personality of a type.

    Functions or not, it just seems to me a general pattern what I wrote in the other post.

    Still, I'm sure there are plenty of very smart and high leveled Te doms, as well as some very stupid and low leveled Ti doms, and perhaps not all Te seconds are just in the middle.

    To be frank though, I really don't know what I'm talking about. I just like to attack things for the thrill of it.

    Feel free to provide counter-arguments in your defence.

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