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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabepl47 View Post
    I'm new to this game but I feel it should almost be impossible to tell an intelligent ISTJ and well rounded INTJ apart from each other, at least on the outside.
    Possibly, except when they are under stress. I find that ISTJs fall into a kind of "doom and gloom" panicked attitude when things go wrong, to the point where one cannot even attempt to help them because they shut out all possible solutions. INTJs, on the other hand, seem to become excessively sensitive but still remain calm.

  2. #22
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta223 View Post
    I understand that ISTJ's value typical customs and traditions like most guardians. But despite this, they still seem like a highly rational personality to me.

    Or is this not true? Do ISTJs place guardian values above rational thought patterns?

    Absolutely. I think the problem is people accept way too much of David Kiersey's statements. The four "rational" types are very different from each other, as are the four "guardian" types. I wouldn't call an ESFJ rational, but ISTJ, absolutely.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabepl47 View Post
    My opinion is that with SJs there seems to be a pretty large variance due to the large amount of people under this one umbrella, how could there not be with 50% or so of the population falling into 4 types? I don't mean to offend anyone but I feel that the more intelligent an SJ the less they will fit the typical stereotype that everyone seems to have of us, either that or the whole idea of being unquestioning drones is just false to begin with. I'm new to this game but I feel it should almost be impossible to tell an intelligent ISTJ and well rounded INTJ apart from each other, at least on the outside.
    INTJs are much funnier, though.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Yes, ISTJs are very much rational beings. I think that any TJ is.
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  5. #25
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabepl47 View Post
    I feel it should almost be impossible to tell an intelligent ISTJ and well rounded INTJ apart from each other, at least on the outside.
    They have a different vibe, once you get to know them better. ISTJs are more concrete and pragmatic. Here, now, show me the money. Nothing concrete? Fo'get about it. They don't get so lost in thought, in the obsessive search for focused knowledge that INTJs can revert to. This doesn't mean ISTJs are any less intelligent than other types.

    As far as ISTJs being rational, from my experience with them, they're very rational.

  6. #26
    Senior Member uberrogo's Avatar
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    What do you mean by rational personality, and why can't ISTJ be both rational and tradition loving?
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  7. #27
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta223 View Post
    This is what I figured as well.

    Would you guys go as far as to say that ISTJ's fit better under the Rationale archetype than Guardian? They certainly seem that way to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    From my experience, the people who care more about customs are SFJs. Or, for that matter, xNFJs, or anyone with strong-ish Fe (b/c they're the ones hosting the events a lot of the time). I'd say that my NFJ friends care a lot more about tradition than any STJ I know of.

    And it's interesting that you alternate using "Rational" as a title and as an adjective. Because, in terms of their title, I'd say yes, they do belong with the other SJs - but in terms of the adjective, yeah, they're rational. But so are ESTJs, and come to think of it, many F types are rational too! In short... It'd probably make more sense to think of those titles in a broader sense. That is, not thinking of one set of types as "the rational ones" or another as "the traditional ones", because that's never how it works. And come to think of it, since when are customs and rationality mutually exclusive?

    /rambling
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Using the term "rational" outside of the MBTI context (ie. Si is not "rational", blah blah blah), I'd say yes, ISTJs usually come across as very rational people. I think many are mistyped as INTJ when they don't fit the guardian stereotype of being conformist drones. However, I find them a lot more "grounded" than INTJs, which can seem more sensible and rational in a way.
    I think the problem is confusion between Jung's definition of the word "rational", with the everyday meaning, and then Keirsey's temperament name.

    ISTJ is "irrational" in the Jungian sense, in being a perceiving dominant (Si). In Socionics, it would be ISTp.

    In the common meaning of the words, which is generally associated with "thinking", they are a T, and it is extraverted (and thus quite visible), and "parental" (auxiliary complex used to lead others) at that even, so yes, they are very "rational" in that sense. Staunch logicians!

    Keirsey's temperament name (him having rejected Jung's concepts), loosely draws from the common usage, but applies it to the abstract thinkers only. I guess they are seen as the ultimate epitome of thinking types because they combine it with conceptual data.
    But I believe new temperament names like this do become confusing, and shifts something that might apply across the board, to only one particular type group.
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  8. #28
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta223 View Post
    In many circumstances customs are in direct opposition to rational mindedness.

    - Special event and traditional gatherings
    - Belief systems about life goals, values, purpose
    - Approach to a problem situation


    I'm reflecting some personal biases into this thread. I've scored as an ISTJ and INTJ depending on the test. I have a curious, floaty personality and mentally ask a lot of "what if" and "what about" questions. I have a strong need for efficiency and find it painful to do tasks that intuitively feel like an inefficient use of time (it's a real chore for me to make my bed or write long articles for my website, but I can spend hours of time planning a scenario to achieve the maximum result. I have a strong dislike of (in my mind) frivolous traditions like religious functions, weddings and other celebrations. I'm the least visible person in my extended family.

    But I also value facts and empirical explanations for their credibility and put a lot of study into my field. I'm loyal to a cause I believe in. I use organizational tools extensively, though my home environment is very messy.

    I don't see a clear division between ISTJ and INTJ. Using myself as an example, they seem one and the same.

    I'm in the same boat as your are. But I don't see myself as a Ni dom. I have a balance in there somewhere. Where is what I would like to know LOL.

    I am not about tradition for the sake of tradition.
    I'd rather discuss and problem solve/improve over do a lot of busy, detailed work ( I hate documenting things to the level of detail required for my job)
    It's hard for me to do a process when there is, like you said, a more efficient way to do it. If the person above me insists that it's done that way, I'd rather him acknowledge that over giving me some BS or assert his 'authority' as a basis. The more I respect you, the more I'll respect your dimwitted plan.

    I'm loyal to things that are consistent with my outlook and personal values. I was never a proponent of doing something because everyone else does.

  9. #29
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The balanced ISTJ might be the most rational type, in the common definition of the word "rational."

    Dominant Si means their self experience and self perception is derived from observable fact, data, details, and remembered concrete experiences. Aux Te compels them to order their environment along this concrete self experience in a logical, organized manner. It's a mistake to think ISTJs and ISJs in general are drones of the prevailing social custom. Their foremost arbiter of Truth is their self experience according to Si. This varies person to person. If their experience of social custom was negative or they disagreed with it, they'll rebel.
    The best [or maybe not] example of ISTJs in their extreme is Temperance Brennan [Bones] from the show Bones.
    Great point, Jock

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    It has to make sense to me first. If it doesn't make sense I'll go along if there's other compelling reasons to do so (read: she's hot).

    Seriously though, I think of this in terms of trying new things. I'm not sure if this is my well tested Si or a well developed Ne, but i'm not intimidated by different things. I'll have some worries/reservations because it is unchartered waters, (evidence of reliance on Si) but I'll approach it with a good attitude. And NO, I don't go out and do lots of research or ask lots of questions, either. In my mind I'm convinced that things will be okay based on my conviction that there's not much out there that I can't handle sensibly.

  10. #30
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabepl47 View Post
    My opinion is that with SJs there seems to be a pretty large variance due to the large amount of people under this one umbrella, how could there not be with 50% or so of the population falling into 4 types? I don't mean to offend anyone but I feel that the more intelligent an SJ the less they will fit the typical stereotype that everyone seems to have of us, either that or the whole idea of being unquestioning drones is just false to begin with. I'm new to this game but I feel it should almost be impossible to tell an intelligent ISTJ and well rounded INTJ apart from each other, at least on the outside.
    Agreed, that's why there's a lot of mistyping among them.

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