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  1. #11
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    In many circumstances customs are in direct opposition to rational mindedness.

    - Special event and traditional gatherings
    - Belief systems about life goals, values, purpose
    - Approach to a problem situation


    I'm reflecting some personal biases into this thread. I've scored as an ISTJ and INTJ depending on the test. I have a curious, floaty personality and mentally ask a lot of "what if" and "what about" questions. I have a strong need for efficiency and find it painful to do tasks that intuitively feel like an inefficient use of time (it's a real chore for me to make my bed or write long articles for my website, but I can spend hours of time planning a scenario to achieve the maximum result. I have a strong dislike of (in my mind) frivolous traditions like religious functions, weddings and other celebrations. I'm the least visible person in my extended family.

    But I also value facts and empirical explanations for their credibility and put a lot of study into my field. I'm loyal to a cause I believe in. I use organizational tools extensively, though my home environment is very messy.

    I don't see a clear division between ISTJ and INTJ. Using myself as an example, they seem one and the same.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    From my experience, the people who care more about customs are SFJs. Or, for that matter, xNFJs, or anyone with strong-ish Fe (b/c they're the ones hosting the events a lot of the time). I'd say that my NFJ friends care a lot more about tradition than any STJ I know of.
    I think that in theory, yes, strong Fe can make it more likely for a person to value their cultural tradition and customs. In my experience too, the ISFJ and INFJ I know seem to identify themselves more closely to their culture than I do. There are maybe some conflicts within them about that but nevertheless they seem to feel it is part of them.

    I think though that in reality this can't be boiled down to type and it's more complicated. For example, an ESTJ I know looks from the outside like he is very much into his own culture, and in a sense he is but in a more superficial way. Inside he has his own very particular world view and philosophy he constructed himself. I think whether or not you identify with your culture is more influenced by other circumstances, like exposure and experience of other cultures from a young age, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta223 View Post
    In many circumstances customs are in direct opposition to rational mindedness.

    - Special event and traditional gatherings
    - Belief systems about life goals, values, purpose
    - Approach to a problem situation


    I'm reflecting some personal biases into this thread. I've scored as an ISTJ and INTJ depending on the test. I have a curious, floaty personality and mentally ask a lot of "what if" and "what about" questions. I have a strong need for efficiency and find it painful to do tasks that intuitively feel like an inefficient use of time (it's a real chore for me to make my bed or write long articles for my website, but I can spend hours of time planning a scenario to achieve the maximum result. I have a strong dislike of (in my mind) frivolous traditions like religious functions, weddings and other celebrations. I'm the least visible person in my extended family.

    But I also value facts and empirical explanations for their credibility and put a lot of study into my field. I'm loyal to a cause I believe in. I use organizational tools extensively, though my home environment is very messy.

    I don't see a clear division between ISTJ and INTJ. Using myself as an example, they seem one and the same.
    I am really similar to many of those things you mentioned. Some family/cultural obligations that have to be done "just because" feel really oppressive to me. I think your culture is a part of your life so it's there and can be a valuable thing, but for me personally, some customs and ways of thinking are just old habits that make no sense and I just can't live like that.

    I think the difference between ISTJ and INTJ, in a stereotypical sense, is that the INTJ enjoys exploring and discovering theoretical ways of making sense of things more than the ISTJ. I think an ISTJ would come to the point of wondering where the real, practical application and change can be made in the real world sooner than the INTJ.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  3. #13
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    Personally, I value rational thought above arbitrary customs and traditions that are more to do with the culture you happen to be born into. Much to the chagrin of my parents I broke away from their traditions after much thought about what I thought was the right way to live.

    I often read that ISTJs value typical customs. I really don't know why this is supposed to be so, especially when ISTJs are supposed to value their independence and have very idiosyncratic inner worlds. In real life experience, I find that many different kinds of people are comfortable in their traditions and habits and are uncomfortable with questioning them. They might not even be aware how habitual their patterns are.
    I think the traditional ISTJ is something of a stereotype and often inaccurate, but there are certain ISTJs who think that way. Si is a function that often opperates around certainty of knowledge - SJs usually want to know what actually works and how you know that it works.

    Of course, you never really know the answer to that until something has actually been tride and tested - hence the association with traditions. An ISJ whos inferior Ne is so supressed that they cannot bear to go looking for other things that might work can end up rather stuck in their ways... But Si wants to know what works, and when the old fashioned ways stop working, somewhere an ISTJ is going to notice and go looking for an alternative that does.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    An ISJ whos inferior Ne is so supressed that they cannot bear to go looking for other things that might work can end up rather stuck in their ways... But Si wants to know what works, and when the old fashioned ways stop working, somewhere an ISTJ is going to notice and go looking for an alternative that does.
    Ok, I see how that can happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I think the traditional ISTJ is something of a stereotype and often inaccurate, but there are certain ISTJs who think that way. Si is a function that often opperates around certainty of knowledge - SJs usually want to know what actually works and how you know that it works.
    Yes, I can relate to that. Not the specific manifestation of that with regard to attachment to tradition for its own sake, but generally yes, what is working/what is true and reliable and knowing why that is so, founding a solid basis and trying to avoid error.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  5. #15
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    I think though that in reality this can't be boiled down to type and it's more complicated. For example, an ESTJ I know looks from the outside like he is very much into his own culture, and in a sense he is but in a more superficial way. Inside he has his own very particular world view and philosophy he constructed himself. I think whether or not you identify with your culture is more influenced by other circumstances, like exposure and experience of other cultures from a young age, etc.
    Yep, agree that following a cultural tradition (or not) can't really be boiled down to type, across the board, although there are certainly trends (otherwise we wouldn't see any applicability for mbti at all!).

    Was thinking after I posted yesterday, that what I wrote re. ISTJ's being more concerned with day to day applications, and present realities, and dealing/working with how things are NOW, applies to the other three SJ's as well. So it's the same with the other SJ's, well at least imo - the focus on present realities/facts/tangibles I think is why the SJ's are labelled Guardians/maintainers/upholders of traditions -- it's just a side effect of the focus on how things are now, and lesser priority/focus/ lack of a natural inclination to look more big-picture and question or overhaul the system (so to speak). Obviously the degree of all of this will vary by individual. So all of the personality descriptions of the SJ's place a lot of emphasis on maintaining traditions, even though in reality this isn't really a conscious focus of the SJ's (in some/many cases), and what's driving them in day to day life.

    I think the difference between ISTJ and INTJ, in a stereotypical sense, is that the INTJ enjoys exploring and discovering theoretical ways of making sense of things more than the ISTJ. I think an ISTJ would come to the point of wondering where the real, practical application and change can be made in the real world sooner than the INTJ.
    Yep, I think that's the general difference too. ISTJ would grow impatient and also not see a whole lot of value in devoting thought towards half the things the INTJ devotes thought towards.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #16
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    The balanced ISTJ might be the most rational type, in the common definition of the word "rational."

    Dominant Si means their self experience and self perception is derived from observable fact, data, details, and remembered concrete experiences. Aux Te compels them to order their environment along this concrete self experience in a logical, organized manner. It's a mistake to think ISTJs and ISJs in general are drones of the prevailing social custom. Their foremost arbiter of Truth is their self experience according to Si. This varies person to person. If their experience of social custom was negative or they disagreed with it, they'll rebel.

    The best [or maybe not] example of ISTJs in their extreme is Temperance Brennan [Bones] from the show Bones.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Was thinking after I posted yesterday, that what I wrote re. ISTJ's being more concerned with day to day applications, and present realities, and dealing/working with how things are NOW, applies to the other three SJ's as well. So it's the same with the other SJ's, well at least imo - the focus on present realities/facts/tangibles I think is why the SJ's are labelled Guardians/maintainers/upholders of traditions -- it's just a side effect of the focus on how things are now, and lesser priority/focus/ lack of a natural inclination to look more big-picture and question or overhaul the system (so to speak). Obviously the degree of all of this will vary by individual. So all of the personality descriptions of the SJ's place a lot of emphasis on maintaining traditions, even though in reality this isn't really a conscious focus of the SJ's (in some/many cases), and what's driving them in day to day life.
    I think SJs are present in a practical sense, there is a connection and to and direct effect felt from the environment and the personal, subjective impact of it, but I think the guardianship issue is more to do with with putting energy into protecting what the SJ feels is worth protecting, rather than a tendency not to question the status quo. I've made radical overhauls in my life, so I'm not afraid of change if I feel it's the right thing to do, and I think most of the ISTJs here would say the same. I've seen some say as much on this forum but somehow it doesn't seem to get picked up and noticed and there is still this prevailing image of us as robots, or whatever. I live with an ENTP, and I am not naturally big picture in the same way he is, this is true, but the guardianship issue has a big-picture aspect in the sense that it upholds and preserves what the SJ feels is too valuable to be lost for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    It's a mistake to think ISTJs and ISJs in general are drones of the prevailing social custom. Their foremost arbiter of Truth is their self experience according to Si. This varies person to person. If their experience of social custom was negative or they disagreed with it, they'll rebel.
    Yes, there is a strong feeling of "how do I see it?", "what does it mean to me?", "don't tell me what to think", "why should I do it that way?", etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The best [or maybe not] example of ISTJs in their extreme is Temperance Brennan [Bones] from the show Bones.
    Hmm, don't know that show. Never saw it here in Europe. Must be on YouTube...
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  8. #18
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delta223 View Post
    I understand that ISTJ's value typical customs and traditions like most guardians. But despite this, they still seem like a highly rational personality to me.

    Or is this not true? Do ISTJs place guardian values above rational thought patterns?
    I don't know who the hell started this "value typical customs" thing, but they're dismissive idiots.

    The two ISTJs I'm friends with don't give a flying fuck about stupid rules. They're the two most "rational" people I know -- they figure out concrete things and tasks faster than I do in most cases. They've got like UBER-common-sense -- to the extreme.

    There are so many times I'm standing around thinking about something and they've already figured it out and are doing something.

    Not that I want to trade with them or anything -- I like my role as the abstract thinker. It means when things that "always" work don't work, I'm finally the quick one!

  9. #19
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Using the term "rational" outside of the MBTI context (ie. Si is not "rational", blah blah blah), I'd say yes, ISTJs usually come across as very rational people. I think many are mistyped as INTJ when they don't fit the guardian stereotype of being conformist drones. However, I find them a lot more "grounded" than INTJs, which can seem more sensible and rational in a way.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #20
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    My opinion is that with SJs there seems to be a pretty large variance due to the large amount of people under this one umbrella, how could there not be with 50% or so of the population falling into 4 types? I don't mean to offend anyone but I feel that the more intelligent an SJ the less they will fit the typical stereotype that everyone seems to have of us, either that or the whole idea of being unquestioning drones is just false to begin with. I'm new to this game but I feel it should almost be impossible to tell an intelligent ISTJ and well rounded INTJ apart from each other, at least on the outside.

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