[ESFJ] ESFJ Hate Thread

[Standuble]

I like to dress up as an ESFJ on here.

Hard to catch one though, takes hours of hunting and then skinning them. Takes a lot of effort by my book, and all sandpapery inside once you put the suit on.

However when you see the end result, all your doubts melt away.

You should try the graveyard. Once they're dead ESFJs suddenly find them a socially acceptable place to hang out.

 

[Showbread]

Yeah, here's the thing. Just because someone doesn't "fit" within cultural norms does not also mean that they are unaware of them and that they want to fit in but cannot. That seems to be a very common assumption whatever your type.

I'm just fine with being an outlier and being weird. I'm even perfectly fine with people who don't like me because of it -- they are entitled to their tastes and opinions. What I am not even remotely fine with is people, however well intentioned, telling me what I need to be and do. That presumes they know what I want / what makes me happy, which they don't, or that I'm ignorant or incapable, which I'm not -- when something important to me is on the line and I feel it is worth my time and effort to put on a performance, I can do that. I'm just not interested to turning my entire life into a performance so that no one is threatened by my non-conformist ways (and I'm perfectly happy with the level of social acceptance I currently get from others). People to whom social norms and fitting in are very important see this as fundamentally incomprehensible, like someone claiming that abject misery is actually their preferred state.

I get that not everyone is equally pushy. However, it's been my observation that whenever people happen to have direct power over me, they are very likely to abuse it, sometimes even without malicious intent -- that's just been my experience. So yeah, I'm very threatened when I find myself in a situation where someone with great allegiance to social conventions is in a position of power over me: maybe they'll keep their noses out from where they don't belong and not try to "help me out", "fix" me, or just outright punish me, but I'd rather be safe than sorry (which means doing everything I possibly can to get out of that situation).

I'm glad you are aware you don't fit social conventions. And I am glad you are okay with it. And guess what, I am okay with that also.

 

[Haven]

You should try the graveyard. Once they're dead ESFJs suddenly find them a socially acceptable place to hang out.

Strict dress code though, and nobody smiles

 

[Standuble]

Strict dress code though, and nobody smiles

There is room for diversity however. It doesn't matter where the necrosis and decomposition sets in the other ESFJs won't cast judgement upon you.

 

[mrcockburn]

I personally think that a helluva lot of hatable 'ESFJs' are not, in fact, ESFJs, but other types who have been socialised into exhibiting ESFJ behaviours. Therefore they don't wear ESFJ well--because they don't mean it.

Of course there are some very unhealthy ESFJs out there, but I tend to feel pity for them rather than hate. Sad Fe =

To play the devil's advocate, a snarky INTX could say that those prone to being "socialized" into a certain type would indeed be ESFJs.

In actuality, everyone is subject to influence of others. Why else do people shower every day? Or exercise basic manners? It's not for their own health.

If anything, given that humans are social animals, I'd say that the ESFJs internet dweebs love hating on so much for their "illogical ways", are in fact, more efficient and logical than anyone else. They immediately address their fundamental need to integrate and thrive in human society, rather than beat around the bush pretending to not care about the "petty people stuff" that, when you boil down to it, is one of the ultimate purpose of all the "more important" things they do.

Holy run on sentences. Ah well.

 

[skylights]

@two cents -

Of course, I agree that someone can be very aware of social norms and choose to not "fit" within them. On the other hand, the way I perceive society, there are a vast number of mini-social-structures with their own norms and conventions. You might be weird within the scope of your own family but normal in the scope of someone else's. Or normal at work but weird at the grocery store. And so on.

I am not trying to minimize or refute any negative experiences that you have had, but I do want to emphasize how the same "in" and "out" that you're perceiving ESFJs to be on the "inside" pushing "out" of, an ESFJ - or any other person for that matter - may not see as "in" and "out" at all. I don't think there is such a thing as that clear of a dichotomy or that clear of a desire on anyone's part to press conventional mores. Rather, people press what they think is right - and that may largely reflect the zeitgeist. I don't think it's true that there are a group of people for whom not wanting to fit in is incomprehensible. I think there are just too many shades of gray for that sort of black and white.

That all said - "power corrupts", goes the phrase, and people cannot escape their own confirmation bias, so leaders tend to try to press us to be like them, even if subconsciously. I don't blame you for wanting to get away from someone who is pushing their personal preferences on you. But I don't think it's fair, or correct, or beneficial, to automatically assign that type of leader an ESFJ typing, or to assume that all ESFJ leaders will behave in that manner.

 

[Showbread]

@two cents -

That all said - "power corrupts", goes the phrase, and people cannot escape their own confirmation bias, so leaders tend to try to press us to be like them, even if subconsciously. I don't blame you for wanting to get away from someone who is pushing their personal preferences on you. But I don't think it's fair, or correct, or beneficial, to automatically assign that type of leader an ESFJ typing, or to assume that all ESFJ leaders will behave in that manner.

Confirmation bias plays such a huge rule in typing. Categorizing and generalizing are things that people do so naturally as a way to organize the world around them. Once you know someone's type it is so very easy to only see the characteristics in them that you associate with their type and attribute it to that, causing you to miss things about them that may not fit your view of their type.

Please note: the "you" in that statement is not actually directed at any one person.

 

[chubber]

I felt mauled and mutilated by an ESFJ. I didn't know why until I found out that she happened to be ESFJ afterwards. Then everything started making sense as to why she was criticising me constantly. She considered me weird, but I found her to be even more weird than me and she couldn't fathom as to why I would say she is weird. haha

 

[Haven]

 

[chubber]

The irony of Arny being and INTJ

 

[Stephano]

alot of people on here do not like ESFJs. Why is this?

Communists don't like fascists, christians don't like atheists and INTPs don't like ESFJs.

The irony of Arny being and INTJ

I believe he is.

Schwarzenegger: "Normal people can be happy with a regular life. I was different. I felt there was more to life than just plodding through an average existence."

Schwarzenegger: "[Growing up] I was one who did not conform and whose will could not be broken."

Most people also think he has little brain activity but in fact his IQ is 135. Apparently most of them type him as STJ.

 

[chubber]

Today was just another moment with ESFJ.

me: may I ask why you told me about that movie "At first sight"?
her: because we were talking about massage
her: and this movie start with a massage scene
her: what now? do you think i wanna youstay blind?? hahahaha
me: ah yes, he gives them good massage, then they sleep afterwards
her: i never can say to you watch a movie that you think bad about me
me: I was not thinking anything bad

 

[Standuble]

Today was just another moment with ESFJ.

me: may I ask why you told me about that movie "At first sight"?
her: because we were talking about massage
her: and this movie start with a massage scene
her: what now? do you think i wanna youstay blind?? hahahaha
me: ah yes, he gives them good massage, then they sleep afterwards
her: i never can say to you watch a movie that you think bad about me
me: I was not thinking anything bad

It sounds like the both of you are a barrel of laughs.

 

[baccheion]

Confirmation bias plays such a huge rule in typing. Categorizing and generalizing are things that people do so naturally as a way to organize the world around them. Once you know someone's type it is so very easy to only see the characteristics in them that you associate with their type and attribute it to that, causing you to miss things about them that may not fit your view of their type.

Please note: the "you" in that statement is not actually directed at any one person.

ESFJs, in general, are notorious for doing this shit. Always trying to box people in, never really seeing them for who they are. Always trying to change them into something they see as more appropriate, never giving a fuck if the person is actually interested. But they are so nice in their minds, because they are not being forceful (they usually think this as they compare themselves to the more pushy ESTJ) and are only trying to help the person, but the truth is they are full of shit. And while they aren't always forceful, they are often extremely nagging about things like these, constantly badgering about them, constantly gossiping and complaining about them, constantly trying to get everyone else on their side, because somehow if they get the group to think they are right, then naturally the shit they are saying is correct. It's possible that not all ESFJs are this way, but finding one or a handful of examples to the contrary doesn't in anyway excuse the bullshit behavior of the rest, or make their behavior magically OK or not the shit that it seems like.

ESFJs aren't the most hated type in MBTI, that's an exaggeration. If there were any type that were the most hated, then it would probably be the ESTJ. But where there are INTPs, there are likely to be a lot of people that have been fucked up or fucked over by guardians (the extroverts especially), and naturally this is probably one of their only avenues to vent and let out steam, or speak about their experiences. In real life, I doubt ESFJs experience as much hate as is alluded to here, this is definitely type related.

Whether they hate the ESFJ or not, people commonly complain about the ESFJ's constant complaining, and constant nagging with minutiae (there is a difference between details (implies the thing matters), and minutiae (implies the thing is irrelevant)). Nag and complain, nag and complain. So if the ESFJ is to work on anything first it would be this. That is, stop nagging/complaining about irrelevant details, or get better at figuring out what really matters. Another thing complained about is their overly emotional nature.

I should just write up all my grievances and air them out. But I'll probably lose interest before I finish. Here goes..

Oh, and as for the other comment of the ESFJ being the ones that build up society, you can always tell when it's them. They are everywhere, as is the case with most guardians, and where they are what you get is the typical bullshit. I found Elaine's account of her experience with the ESFJ teacher especially correct. And I could say the same for most guardians. Being taught by them is the most painful experience, especially when it's a subject I was a natural in, and excelled at without effort, and therefore didn't pay much attention to. They'd just go nuts trying to get me to conform to some painful process of doing things, or accuse me of being arrogant because I didn't try hard, or that I was weird or a sociopath because I was quiet, or that I need to open up more, and need to socialize (what the fuck is with them generally not being able to grasp the fact that not everyone needs the same things they do). It's like they take everything they are and assume everyone else is that way, and when they meet people that prove that belief wrong, they either sit there in denial while trying to change that other person or while calling them weird, or they start with the gossipy bullshit until they've said something behind their back that's sufficiently satisfying, and then they go back to the person (they always go back, they are always nagging about some shit that's still on their mind) and mumble some shit as though they are OK with who they really are, but all that happened is that they bitched about the person behind their back and have poisoned others against them, so now they can make themselves look like the nice guy while secretly being able to laugh at said person, because there is only one valid form of human being.

I've also been to the psych wards, and to the hospitals where these people are, and it was nothing but more bullshit. They don't listen at all, and they don't seem to care at all, they just seem obsessed with trying to make themselves feel like they are helping, and with always make it look like they are trying to help while continuing to impose their bullshit. I couldn't even breathe properly in that place, it was just a recount of my childhood involving all the idiots nagging and annoying me about socializing more, and with all the idiots doing any rotten underhanded thing they could think of to get me to socialize, or whatever other bullshit they think will help. And not once did they spend the time to try to figure out who I really am (not that I care), or what it is that would actually help me, they were too busy assuming and trying to prove true that it's this one size fits all line of bullshit that will fix everyone. I couldn't shake the feeling that me saying I was fine and wanted to be left alone (while constantly having to explain what drove me to that place in the first place) was some sort of challenge for them, or some sort of excuse, because now they could let loose and start beating me down until they got me to say that I'm the rotten kind of shit that they keep assuming I am.

Also, the mother thing mentioned in this thread: so true! They are always trying to mother me, or, more accurately, trying to treat me like a child. Every chance they get. It doesn't matter what mood I'm in or what I'm doing. They especially start doing this when I start excelling at something or start doing well, and it becomes so clear that this is their mechanism to maintain control, because all my accomplishments show are that I'm independent and that I don't need them, and that whatever shit they were saying was impossible was actually child's play to have happen. They can't let it go, and they start bullshitting. And if you think they are helping you out of the goodness of their heart, then you are really clueless, because (just like I saw mentioned elsewhere in this thread) they list out all the "nice" things they've done, and it seems to be constantly going through their minds, and they keep building themselves up about it, like you owe them something, and at the first moment they feel slighted (which doesn't take much), they start listing that shit out. That is foreign to me (the type that is opposite of who they are) because I help people all the time, and I don't even think about it. Hell, I don't even remember half the things I've done, and I'm usually eventually heralded as the "nicest guy in the world." Too nice. So nice that I get used and people try to take advantage of me. So nice that they laugh at me and tell me I'm being stupid for helping. So nice that you seem them rolling around in bullshit making it clear they'll never do anything to be in that position, because they'd feel used, all while screaming that that's what's happening to them when any minor thing happens. And you're saying that the person that's the psychological opposite of me is nice like that? You can see how I have room to doubt. It seems like with everything they have to do that's nice they start complaining because they feel imposed upon, and are only doing it because they have to, and they've had to bitch and moan about it until they found a way to make themselves feel better. Maybe what they are (which would be the opposite of who I am) are people that are more forward and consistent with verbal affirmations and compliments, whether they mean them or not. And even when these people are full of shit with the compliments they give, that sort of behaviour seems to count for much more in the eyes of most people, and there's always some shit trying to get me to do the same. And to them I respond: no! I'm not going to open my mouth and say these "nice" things, especially when I don't mean them. If you don't appreciate the way I show support, fondness, kindness, etc, then fuck off. But they don't. They just start spinning some bullshit while saying I'm the problem or that something is wrong with me, never really being able to let it go. It's like anything outside of who they are or what they think is appropriate is a disease. And it's sickening to watch. Maybe not all ESFJs are like this, but I'll be damned if you convince me that what I'm seeing didn't happen, or that the ESFJs I've been around weren't this exact same shit.

ESFJs are heralded as practical, and down to earth, etc. And while this can be good, I've only seen the bad side of it. That is, they are practical and down to earth to the exclusion of everything else. If it's not practical (in their opinion), or something that solves some immediate problem, then it's garbage and a waste of time, and no one should spend any time on it. And I'd be fine with that if it were just their personal belief, and hell, even if they used it to start talking shit about me when I do my usual N shit, but no, they then take it upon themselves to step in and try to get me to stop what I'm doing, then try to get me to redirect my attention to something they think is so fucking appropriate, whether I have any interest in it or not. And they always try to do it while making themselves seem so fucking nice, and while making it seem like they are trying to help me, but it's just more bullshit. And more than that, whatever they pick for me to redirect my energies toward, if annoying me and trying to tell me what to do wasn't bad enough, is pure shit. And when I say something like that, or ignore them because they are wasting my time, they just ramp up the bullshit, and start up with some sob story, about how there are starving children, or how this person is being abused, or whatever other bullshit they can come up with (whether it's relevant to the situation or not) to try to force me to do this shit. And then if I ever happen to do it, they try to trap me so they can get me to do their stupid shit again and again, but more importantly they start gossiping with their friends about how I'm now putty in their hands or about how I'm completely under control now, or some other bullshit. I don't even know how I hear about these things. Oh, that's right, because these people have issues, and it's only a matter of time before something else happens that causes them to feel slighted, and their response is to try to throw some shit like this in my face. This makes me think that they gossip to let off steam, yes, but more to build up bullshit that they can use as ammunition against other people, and more to get the people they are gossiping with on their side, and more to get support for whatever bullshit they are gossiping about (which is usually false, or the most horrible things to say), because clearly if a group believes it, then it is magically true.

I remember myself being this sweet innocent child that minded his own business and focused on schoolwork, etc, and all these people tried to do was box me in, make me miserable, and destroy me. Not only did they hate how quiet I was, they hated how happy and content I was, because, according to them, if you are in solitude, or don't talk much, then you're not supposed to be happy! It was always one of these idiots in the room when I was called a sociopath, or when I'm accused of anything stupid, and there they are always with that bullshit look on their face trying to make it look like they are concerned, when, after some digging, you find out that they were the bitches that made the accusations behind my back in the first place. And this seems like a common approach of their's. Accuse people of some shit behind their back, and then when it's showtime step forward like they are the nice ones, and sometimes even make it look like they are defending the person to save their own face. A real treat these people.

Did I mention they take every fucking thing as a slight or as something done to offend them? For the love of God! Everything is an attack against them. An attack they have to find some feminine girly way to strike back against. They always are bitching to their gossip circle about who's rude, who's inappropriate, or who's an asshole, and they are always trying to build people up against them. And their retaliation shows just how much they've blown things out of proportion. And they say the stupidest most narrow-minded shit.

They also get jealous like nobody's business. Jealous and competitive. When the genders are the same and you are better than them at something, they start with the bullshit. They start attacking in the most annoying way, trying to break you down. But you're always distracted from that because you are too shocked by the shit they are doing and the shit that's coming out of their mouth in parallel, and by how much it paints these people as the most narrow-minded, rotten, and black and white thinking people you've ever met. You realize that beneath that facade of niceness and politeness, that this is what the fuck is waiting for you, and you realize what the existence of that facade is all about.

And their emotions are out of control. They react to everything in an out of control manner. Maybe they are the ones that, despite their facade of maturity and whatever else they are trying to look like, that should be treated like children, because that is what the fuck I see when I look at them. A bunch of spoilt teenage schoolgirls, or a bunch of soft effeminate judgmental nagging males. The men I'm not so clear on, but they act macho and tough, but they can't handle shit, and everything quickly descends to the same old girly bullshit.

They use the excuse that they are just trying to be nice, and that they are just trying to help you or look out for you, or do what's best for you as their excuse for everything. Regardless of their true intention. And this must be a good excuse or else 1. they wouldn't use it, and 2. people wouldn't eat it up like junk food, then turn around and start defending the bullshit actions of the ESFJs. "I thought they made it clear they were just trying to help. They mean well, and you should be more appreciative of what they are trying to do." All said to me as this shit impedes on what makes me me, and on what makes me unique, and on what I want to do, in favor of some unoriginal uninspiring pointless repetitive already-been-done bullshit they cooked up that they think is so appropriate.

I don't appreciate their niceness. Always trying to do something nice without actually doing something nice, and while making sure it takes a lot of effort and time so they can trap you into having to appreciate it or into having to say thanks. Always trying to make it look to others that what they are doing is the nicest thing, not necessarily to the person they are doing it for. Their niceness never registers with me (worse, it seems annoying, unnecessary, imposing, and suffocating (obligating me to some sort of response)), and I wish they'd stop. But they don't, they just get bitter and negative, and start doing even more rotten shit, while going off on some bullshit rant about "is this what you want," or, "see how nice I was being" or some other form of stupidity. Every time I interact with these people I leave thinking, "WTF just happened? WTF was that? Why won't these people go away and leave me the hell alone." And the answer is, of course, because they are so nice, and my situation is so sad, and they just want what's best for me. Whatever you say, you shit. I don't buy one single word of it.

And it's funny for me how well this matches with my love-hate relationship with ENFPs, and with how consistently ENFPs say they like ESFJs and get along with them well (independent of the hate threads), because they are like the tag team that's always annoying the hell out of me, while saying the stupidest shit. I always think better of ENFPs, but then they start up with some bullshit, and it just leaves me dumbfounded. I call it projection. I don't know where this shit comes from, but there the two are together, absolutely convinced they are helping me, while doing nothing more than shitting on my life, my plans, my dreams, and my future. And I'm not supposed to be bitter about this shit?

It was by reflecting on my experience with this type that I was able to confidently conclude I'm an INTP, because while other types annoy me, this one takes the take, and that therefore strongly suggests that they are my conflict.

 

[Cellmold]

Shortened

Yah that's why I am ashamed of myself.

 

[Standuble]

Great post from CaptLawyer. If you were to simplify the whole ESFJ experience down to a single sentence: "beyond the smoke and mirrors I only care about myself." Makes you wonder why they bothered with the fake nice routine at all.

My mother is a bad example: gossips, is controlling, abysmal logic, readily insults (ad-hominem attack style), obsessed with her social standing, tries to stop potentially heated discussions with "don't start arguing!" (even if the two argument has nothing to do with her), resolved the above problem by closing windows all over the house (?), is a bit OCD and blames others for it, doesn't see the bigger picture or understand the views of others, has to explain every detail (Si), has never been a person I could confide in and talks down to others. But of course she has always been "the best mother there is" or "you won't find a better mother than me" with all the apparent niceness being comfortably wrapped up in a passive aggressive demeanour. But to be fair I suppose she could have been worse (ESTJ) or not known how to cook.

 

[Eruca]

My flatemate/landlord is an ESFJ and she is a very nice, intelligent, caring woman.

So there is that.

 

[WALMART]

Fe has the potential to actualize a lot of ideological concerns.

I like Fe.

 

[Standuble]

Fe has the potential to actualize a lot of ideological concerns.

I like Fe.

It also likes to shoot down any ideological hybrids which spring up (even if they are essentially a synthesis remedy) because the group doesn't like them.

 

[WALMART]

It also likes to shoot down any ideological hybrids which spring up (even if they are essentially a synthesis remedy) because the group doesn't like them.

baby with the bathwater

i tell myself