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[ESFJ] ESFJ Hate Thread

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
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Jul 24, 2008
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19,452
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sp/so
ESFJs forced me to dress up like a mailman, don a codpiece and dance to Right Said Fred songs. I hates them. I hates them forever. Excuse me while I put in my ear gauges to show how not fake and authentic I am.

The secret government is run by ESFJ lizard people. I should know, because I'm a secret ESFJ lizard person.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
Lol, you're the sole defender of fort ESFJ. You do well when outlasting sieges or surviving skirmishes. If I was the only one left to defend my type I think I would go nuts and just run in there mindlessly swinging my sword until someone cuts me through.

How is the situation in Greece? You haven't had anyone try and nick your stuff have you?

Well it helps that I don't see it as defending anything since that would imply some sort of bizarre acceptance that I am responsible for other ESFJ's and their evil ways.

As for Greece I thought it would be like that as well, but since I wen't to the isle of Kalymnos which is a big hotspot for climbers and is doing very well out of it on a local scale; I haven't seen anything particularly destitute or 'rioty'.

You know what I don't get... since the Fe-dom is supposed to collect, so to speak, information from others since they don't trust their own internal logic... then I don't know why they are not Typology Central as often as the rest of us? Either they seek affirmation from a different source, or they are on here and just shy (since it would mean that they are using their inferior function).

I suspect a theory could be made that they are already affirmed by their surroundings as those surroundings already cater to them due to the numerecy of their type, so much so that many don't feel the tug of the inferior through conflict and ostracization as I have.
So I think you are right that people of the type do probably get affirmation from a different source than the more inspective ones of introverts, the analytical of thinkers, the theorising of N's or the experiential ones of S.

Although the Si of course plays it's part.

Myself it was exactly the motive you posted that brought me here. I wished to gather more information about myself and others and my inability to....well....work things out for myself without an established foundation, is what brought me to the theory and eventually to here.
It is a collection of information, but it is hardly a rules based system that I apply socially. I've long since learned from the development of my secondary function that interaction with others rarely runs on a structured basis and I had already learnt from an early age that one of the most important lessons in life is the realisation that others don't think like you do.
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
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Well it helps that I don't see it as defending anything since that would imply some sort of bizarre acceptance that I am responsible for other ESFJ's and their evil ways.


I suspect a theory could be made that they are already affirmed by their surroundings as those surroundings already cater to them due to the numerecy of their type, so much so that many don't feel the tug of the inferior through conflict and ostracization as I have.
So I think you are right that people of the type do probably get affirmation from a different source than the more inspective ones of introverts, the analytical of thinkers, the theorising of N's or the experiential ones of S.

Although the Si of course plays it's part.

Myself it was exactly the motive you posted that brought me here. I wished to gather more information about myself and others and my inability to....well....work things out for myself without an established foundation, is what brought me to the theory and eventually to here.
It is a collection of information, but it is hardly a rules based system that I apply socially. I've long since learned from the development of my secondary function that interaction with others rarely runs on a structured basis and I had already learnt from an early age that one of the most important lessons in life is the realisation that others don't think like you do.

I think that's why I spend some time on here too, though. I like the idea of getting a better picture of what it means to be me (I like to think about it as reading a novel... except it's all about me ...cause I am self-referential like that, yo xD). I don't know how I'd like to do it, though. I know that simply calling myself an Fe-dom wouldn't do it for me (no one ever really thinks I am an Fe dom, anyway).

My main problem is that I don't know how to explain myself in words that others would understand; I am not worried with people not thinking like me... I am more worried that my true self just won't be understood.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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Mar 23, 2012
Messages
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I think that's why I spend some time on here too, though. I like the idea of getting a better picture of what it means to be me (I like to think about it as reading a novel... except it's all about me ...cause I am self-referential like that, yo xD). I don't know how I'd like to do it, though. I know that simply calling myself an Fe-dom wouldn't do it for me (no one ever really thinks I am an Fe dom, anyway).

My main problem is that I don't know how to explain myself in words that others would understand; I am not worried with people not thinking like me... I am more worried that my true self just won't be understood.

See that difference in motive is fascinating in it's way, I don't even have a concept of a true self, it is the frightening reality of myself that I change based on context and group, although I have been able to resist the influence of more negative ones I think, but that is entirely based on my upbringing and mainly positive environment.

Imagine how frightening it is to realise that you are almost entirely dictated by others perceptions.

Individuality finds little purchase for me in that mess, although I admire your own conviction to be understood. Not an easy task, especially when others would most likely distort the information you give them with their own biases and understandings.
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
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I don't hate any ESFJ's. Except for stereotypes of people I don't know whose values are opposite mine. And perhaps some politicians and lobbyists and such.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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Mar 23, 2012
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I don't hate any ESFJ's. Except for stereotypes of people I don't know whose values are opposite mine. And perhaps some politicians and lobbyists and such.

I've actually been devoting a great deal of thought to how Si works and how when it isn't dominant it becomes a generalised arbiter of how reality ought to be.

Because ESJ'S are so defined by the environment and culture that surrounds them and which they grew up with, more so I think than other types, the nature of their culture becomes more evident through them and they often adhere to the many stereotypes people have about different countries.

This also results in vastly different behaviour between individuals of different cultures, while at their core being very similar.
I mention this because while on this holiday I have noticed a great deal of american holidayers as well. And the first thing I've noticed about them is just how extraverted they are compared to even myself.

Because the USA is, at a superficial glance, an extraverted culture whereas my own is quite downplayed. Which isn't to say that the more negative ESFJ's here are no less frustrating, but it is done in a subtly different way.
For example there is no way I would ever have gone round the table next to mine at a restaurant, loudly proclaiming: "HI IM SIMONE HOW ARE YOU?!" As a lady from The USA did so last night.
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
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See that difference in motive is fascinating in it's way, I don't even have a concept of a true self, it is the frightening reality of myself that I change based on context and group, although I have been able to resist the influence of more negative ones I think, but that is entirely based on my upbringing and mainly positive environment.

Imagine how frightening it is to realise that you are almost entirely dictated by others perceptions.

Individuality finds little purchase for me in that mess, although I admire your own conviction to be understood. Not an easy task, especially when others would most likely distort the information you give them with their own biases and understandings.

You think we're on here for different motives? ...hhmmm, maybe... mayyyybbbeeee... it could be that we're both 6w7s so maybe that's why I think a bit differently. (if that's really your enneagram)

It's true. I feel that I strongly have a self that goes beyond friendships and other's expectations. This happened probably because I've moved around a bit too often so it's hard for me to realize that I exist in relation to others (I don't even think I exist in relation to my family). At the same time, I know that the self lives within the confines of genetics and experiences. And I am not really worried that other people would be confused/misguided (I am already a confusing person), what is more important is that I get to see the what's written in the pages life has given me.

nnnoooo, don't be frightened... (well, feel how you feel). I don't know what it's like to experience that feeling (yet), but maybe you do have a sense of individuality; although we can let experiences effect us, we can always take the time to reshape the past, present and future in order to separate ourselves from reality.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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Mar 23, 2012
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You think we're on here for different motives? ...hhmmm, maybe... mayyyybbbeeee... it could be that we're both 6w7s so maybe that's why I think a bit differently. (if that's really your enneagram)

It's true. I feel that I strongly have a self that goes beyond friendships and other's expectations. This happened probably because I've moved around a bit too often so it's hard for me to realize that I exist in relation to others (I don't even think I exist in relation to my family). At the same time, I know that the self lives within the confines of genetics and experiences. And I am not really worried that other people would be confused/misguided (I am already a confusing person), what is more important is that I get to see the what's written in the pages life has given me.

nnnoooo, don't be frightened... (well, feel how you feel). I don't know what it's like to experience that feeling (yet), but maybe you do have a sense of individuality; although we can let experiences effect us, we can always take the time to reshape the past, present and future in order to separate ourselves from reality.

I suppose it's just my relation to the world that I require things to be spelled out. It's an unfortunate and sobering reality for me and while I idealise the concepts of being creative, different and individual, I realise this is a form of wish.

I am not those things and never will be, so I need to work on appreciating the qualities I do possess. I don't really knowhow to escape my experiences and how they shape me though, they are just concrete blocks on my soul.

I hope you get to see those pages.
 

Haven

Blind Guardian
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Dr. ESFJ, or: How I learned to stop worrying and love the hate.
 

Standuble

New member
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Aug 23, 2011
Messages
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I suppose it's just my relation to the world that I require things to be spelled out. It's an unfortunate and sobering reality for me and while I idealise the concepts of being creative, different and individual, I realise this is a form of wish.

I am not those things and never will be, so I need to work on appreciating the qualities I do possess. I don't really knowhow to escape my experiences and how they shape me though, they are just concrete blocks on my soul.

I hope you get to see those pages.

FWIW yesterday I was running calculations for my upcoming accountacy exam and I kept fucking up. I kept forgetting the questions, overlooking key pieces of data, being unsure about the optimal method of solving the problems, being oblivious to small details etc. For a little while I actually found myself actually envying SJs and wishing I was one; at the very least the stronger Si would let me dominate all this. In many ways my life would be easy and maybe even better as a sensor.

You no doubt have many talents you can embrace and use. At least it all has worth. Much of the stuff out there becomes pure novelty if only due to lack of application.
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
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I've actually been devoting a great deal of thought to how Si works and how when it isn't dominant it becomes a generalised arbiter of how reality ought to be.

Because ESJ'S are so defined by the environment and culture that surrounds them and which they grew up with, more so I think than other types, the nature of their culture becomes more evident through them and they often adhere to the many stereotypes people have about different countries.

This also results in vastly different behaviour between individuals of different cultures, while at their core being very similar.
I mention this because while on this holiday I have noticed a great deal of american holidayers as well. And the first thing I've noticed about them is just how extraverted they are compared to even myself.

Because the USA is, at a superficial glance, an extraverted culture whereas my own is quite downplayed. Which isn't to say that the more negative ESFJ's here are no less frustrating, but it is done in a subtly different way.
For example there is no way I would ever have gone round the table next to mine at a restaurant, loudly proclaiming: "HI IM SIMONE HOW ARE YOU?!" As a lady from The USA did so last night.

I think that is accurate. And many people are unnecessarily loud. Not just Americans, either.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
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Because the USA is, at a superficial glance, an extraverted culture whereas my own is quite downplayed. Which isn't to say that the more negative ESFJ's here are no less frustrating, but it is done in a subtly different way.
For example there is no way I would ever have gone round the table next to mine at a restaurant, loudly proclaiming: "HI IM SIMONE HOW ARE YOU?!" As a lady from The USA did so last night.

I think there is truth to this... about the U.S. being very extraverted than Britain. Without ever visiting Britain, they seem.... quieter and more aloof.

I don't know how much this has to do with the U.S., but sometimes it seems like people don't have any boundaries here. I'm pretty sure I'm not given off any signals that I want you to comment on private activities, but just because I'm out in public, people seem to assume it's ok. A lot of people don't understand that sometimes people want to be left alone, even if they aren't in their apartment.

Sorry, I was writing in my journal, and someone made some stupid wisecrack about "good penmanship" that wasn't even funny. Ok, my penmanship is not that good, but that's not what I object to. The comment in itself wasn't terribly objectionable, it's just that... yes, I now most people don't do this kind of thing. You're not interesting or special or amusing for pointing this out to me. I'm writing in my journal because I'd rather be doing that than talking to you. It's really fucking rude to bother people who obviously don't want to be bothered.

It's funny how people can consider themselves "interpersonally skilled" and not grasp a concept like that. They must have been an ESFJ, because they did something that annoyed me.
 

chubber

failed poetry slam career
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ESFJ are so corny when they motivate, being enthusiastic, but sometimes it is so darn cute and adorable. I just wished they would tone down their level of criticism and explosive behaviour.
 

two cents

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When I think ESFJ I think "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". Surely, that's a horrible stereotype and they can't ALL like this... Still, the mindset gives me the heebie-jeebies. Oh, and next time I figure out my boss is an ESFJ, I'll be searching for another job, PRONTO!
 

Showbread

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When I think ESFJ I think "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". Surely, that's a horrible stereotype and they can't ALL like this... Still, the mindset gives me the heebie-jeebies. Oh, and next time I figure out my boss is an ESFJ, I'll be searching for another job, PRONTO!

And herein lies the problem with personality typing. You don't even know me, but you've already decided that you don't like me and that I would make a terrible boss. Which, I think is really a shame. And for the record, my best friend is an INFJ.
 

two cents

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And herein lies the problem with personality typing. You don't even know me, but you've already decided that you don't like me and that I would make a terrible boss. Which, I think is really a shame. And for the record, my best friend is an INFJ.

You are right. Being an ESFJ doesn't define everything about you, and maybe the traits that defined the last (very unpleasant) ESFJ I ran into don't generalize to the entire type. That nod to it being a horrible stereotype was sincere.

That said, when it comes to having an ESFJ boss, there's a slightly more complex process. If they announced they are and ESFJ (highly unlikely), that might just make me extra cautious, because unlike my best friend, they are in position of power over me and can very easily make my life very unpleasant. Most likely the reason I'd decide my boss is an ESFJ is if I detect the behavior that I (perhaps erroneously) associate with ESFJs, the "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". And in the latter case I would be justified in running the other way because I don't exactly fit into many social conventions. Even then, it's a precaution because technically, no matter how my boss feels about when I wake up in the morning or the means of transportation I use to get to work or any other aspect of my personal life, important or trivial, standards of professional behavior should at least keep them from letting their personal opinions influence their treatment of me at the workplace. But professional or not, I wouldn't feel very safe when someone who doesn't like me has tangible and personal power over me.

In more power-neutral situations I wouldn't let someone's type dictate their credibility in my eyes.

I'm sure there's an INFJ hate thread where you can bash their jumping to conclusions and being aggressively right :D (just guessing, I don't know if that's the annoying thing INFJs do more often than others)
 

skylights

i love
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That said, when it comes to having an ESFJ boss, there's a slightly more complex process. If they announced they are and ESFJ (highly unlikely), that might just make me extra cautious, because unlike my best friend, they are in position of power over me and can very easily make my life very unpleasant. Most likely the reason I'd decide my boss is an ESFJ is if I detect the behavior that I (perhaps erroneously) associate with ESFJs, the "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". And in the latter case I would be justified in running the other way because I don't exactly fit into many social conventions. Even then, it's a precaution because technically, no matter how my boss feels about when I wake up in the morning or the means of transportation I use to get to work or any other aspect of my personal life, important or trivial, standards of professional behavior should at least keep them from letting their personal opinions influence their treatment of me at the workplace. But professional or not, I wouldn't feel very safe when someone who doesn't like me has tangible and personal power over me.

You're entitled to dislike whoever you want, of course, but I'm not sure why you're bothering to correlate ESFJ directly with "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions" when ESFJ does not always correlate with "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". Why not just look for "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions" and skip the ESFJ label all together?

I think it would be far more accurate to say ExFJ preferences correlate with tendency to modify behavior, and SJ preferences tend to correlate with awareness of cultural norms. An ESFJ actually can be a huge asset to someone who does not fit into many social conventions because ESFJs are typically natively good at navigating within social conventions. My ESFJ mom is a special education teacher, for example, and spends a huge amount of her time working to empower people who aren't good at "fitting in". She doesn't like leadership positions, but when she is in one, she stresses democracy, harmony, and everyone being included and happy. It's funny because she's very Je but she's not an "enforcer" at all, much less aggressive. I wouldn't say she's a great leader, but that's because she's not harsh enough. It's actually the exact opposite of what you're describing. IMO she's too gentle and accepting when she's in a leadership position. And on the flip side, I know other ESFJs who are great leaders.

And of course this is not all to say that you might not experience difficulty in general with ESFJ types in leadership positions, but it may well have something to do with the way you tend to think in concert with the way they tend to think that creates the clash. I don't think it's just ESFJ + leadership that creates a bad combination. Maybe it is a bad combination for you personally, but I don't think it's an objective pattern in the world at large.
 

two cents

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I think it would be far more accurate to say ExFJ preferences correlate with tendency to modify behavior, and SJ preferences tend to correlate with awareness of cultural norms. An ESFJ actually can be a huge asset to someone who does not fit into many social conventions because ESFJs are typically natively good at navigating within social conventions.

Yeah, here's the thing. Just because someone doesn't "fit" within cultural norms does not also mean that they are unaware of them and that they want to fit in but cannot. That seems to be a very common assumption whatever your type.

I'm just fine with being an outlier and being weird. I'm even perfectly fine with people who don't like me because of it -- they are entitled to their tastes and opinions. What I am not even remotely fine with is people, however well intentioned, telling me what I need to be and do. That presumes they know what I want / what makes me happy, which they don't, or that I'm ignorant or incapable, which I'm not -- when something important to me is on the line and I feel it is worth my time and effort to put on a performance, I can do that. I'm just not interested to turning my entire life into a performance so that no one is threatened by my non-conformist ways (and I'm perfectly happy with the level of social acceptance I currently get from others). People to whom social norms and fitting in are very important see this as fundamentally incomprehensible, like someone claiming that abject misery is actually their preferred state.

I get that not everyone is equally pushy. However, it's been my observation that whenever people happen to have direct power over me, they are very likely to abuse it, sometimes even without malicious intent -- that's just been my experience. So yeah, I'm very threatened when I find myself in a situation where someone with great allegiance to social conventions is in a position of power over me: maybe they'll keep their noses out from where they don't belong and not try to "help me out", "fix" me, or just outright punish me, but I'd rather be safe than sorry (which means doing everything I possibly can to get out of that situation).
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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I like to dress up as an ESFJ on here.

Hard to catch one though, takes hours of hunting and then skinning them. Takes a lot of effort by my book, and all sandpapery inside once you put the suit on.

However when you see the end result, all your doubts melt away.
 
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