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  1. #81
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    That wasn't supposed to happen outside the expanded universe. >_<
    Well, you'll find that the core id types (3, 7, and 8) tend to gravitate towards the dark side. While the super-ego types (2, 6, 1) tend to gravitate towards the light side of force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grublet View Post
    You must sense the sandwich before you can perceive the sandwich.
    No I must see the sandwich in my mind's third eye (my intuition) before I can percieve the sandwich.

  2. #82
    Member Ukon's Avatar
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    I can tolerate them since my Grandma is one. We can't talk macro-biology together or anything but she makes the best sweets.
    people who expect a change
    who can't throw away their humanity
    who stay idle in growth
    who won't dirty their hands
    those are the most terrifying of monsters

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post
    They don't acknowledge and/or alter the wrong they may do, and frequently find ways to justify their wrong as someone else's wrong. ... None of them have really realized their own internal ailments and how they affect their actions.
    Your whole post is very astute!

    I've noticed some similiraties with ESTJs. I wonder if it's some kind of a Je-Ne loop that forces them to try to be "perfect" in every way/scenario (Ne) in their respective field (Fe for how people percieve me, Te for being right etc.). Which leads to self delusion and denial.

    God, I hate ESFJs.

  4. #84
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta
    I've noticed some similiraties with ESTJs. I wonder if it's some kind of a Je-Ne loop that forces them to try to be "perfect" in every way/scenario (Ne) in their respective field (Fe for how people percieve me, Te for being right etc.). Which leads to self delusion and denial.
    I think the justification thing is more of a human issue in general of not seeing through each others' perspectives very well. I found it interesting that @Unkindloving as an ENFJ wrote that, because my ENFJ best friend did that to me so badly once that our friendship almost ended because of it - she told me a secret but didn't tell me that it was secret, so I shared the information, then she accused me for the fallout - in her words, I "should have known" it was a secret.

    It may be that Je types have more of a tendency towards it because they pick up on "shared" Fe/Te measures better - for example, what would be commonly held to be socially inappropriate (Fe) or what would be most expedient given the external bounds (Te). To a more internally-tuned Ji type, it is much less clear. In my case, I suspect that my ENFJ friend assumed that I had the same social radar as her and would automatically pick up that this was information not meant to be shared. To be fair, I understood it was privileged, but I responded in kind by not telling anyone except one person I trusted, and then she did the same by telling one person she trusted - who also told one person, who happened to be the original secret-teller, the one who told my ENFJ friend. So it actually never left that small loop of 5 people - the fallout was because the information had been leaked elsewhere, by someone else. To this day, I feel that it was unfair that my ENFJ friend held it against me, because she did the same thing I did. But she seems to judge more on external impact than internal processing, and to her it appeared that I had caused the fallout (though I think the truth is more that she is an enneagram 3, and she was angry that I "exposed" her to a person she held in high regard).

    The largest frustrations I have with the ESFJs I have had interactions with enough to confidently identify as ESFJ (and especially the Enneagram 2 variety) is the martyr complex in addition to external pushiness. It turns into this pattern where they do something that doesn't really help me or really isn't pleasing to me, but they think it's good for me, and then they get upset with me for not appreciating the thing I didn't want in the first place. Given, it has taught be to be more graceful about receiving unwanted gifts, but I still have trouble bringing myself to demonstrate much gratitude beyond "thank you for your kindness".

    That said, their enthusiasm, positivity, warmth, and practicality are excellent qualities. I think they are often the ones responsible for the daily upkeep and fostering of human lives - teachers, nurses, administrators, social workers.

  5. #85
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    I can't attest for all of my ENFJ brethren, because I think despite having our tentacally feelers out, a lot of us do have that self-awareness/mind-reader-expectation issue.
    Glad for the tentacally feelers though, because that is the largest difference between the enfj/esfj that I see. The enfj wants to touch the individual with our feeler. The esfj wants to touch the concept of the individual with theirs.
    Hang on traveling woman - Don't sacrifice your plan
    Cause it will come back to you - Before you lose it on the man


    .:: DWTWD ::.

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    2011 TypeC Exercise Challenge - My Weekly Goals: Cardio 4x. Yoga/Pilates 1x. Pushups 70.

    There is this thing keeping everyone's lungs and lips locked - It is called fear and it's seeing a great renaissance

  6. #86
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post
    I can't attest for all of my ENFJ brethren, because I think despite having our tentacally feelers out, a lot of us do have that self-awareness/mind-reader-expectation issue.
    Glad for the tentacally feelers though, because that is the largest difference between the enfj/esfj that I see. The enfj wants to touch the individual with our feeler. The esfj wants to touch the concept of the individual with theirs.
    That's interesting. Can I be annoying, since I summoned you already, and ask for more clarification please? I assume what you're saying has something to do with Ni/Se versus Ne/Si. Is the desire to influence the individual, or mutual exchange of influence? And whose concept of the individual - the ESFJ's or the individual's concept of themselves?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It may be that Je types have more of a tendency towards it because they pick up on "shared" Fe/Te measures better - for example, what would be commonly held to be socially inappropriate (Fe) or what would be most expedient given the external bounds (Te).
    I don't know about your ENFJ friend. I'd say Fe can be bothersome and pushy in itself. I wanted to point out to the lack of self-awareness already mentioned in ESFJs.

    With Fe and Ne they seem driven to improve the way people percieve them (Fe), but it gets in a loop with Ne. So they try harder to be seen possitevely but then Ne shows them how "it could be better", they try harder and then see again the possible better, try harder, etc.

    I think it's similar with Te-Ne and how ESTJs seem unable to admit to being wrong/their fault, blaming somebody else.

    Imagine if the Je is the core of your ego and your sense of self worth depends solely on the results you get (Fe or Te results regardless). And then with Ne those results never seem good enough cause Ne is always showing you a possible better future. You need some way to protect yourself. Denial being the choice for many.

    This is the best guess I have so far for their behavior. I hate it very much

  8. #88
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    I don't know about your ENFJ friend. I'd say Fe can be bothersome and pushy in itself. I wanted to point out to the lack of self-awareness already mentioned in ESFJs.

    With Fe and Ne they seem driven to improve the way people percieve them (Fe), but it gets in a loop with Ne. So they try harder to be seen possitevely but then Ne shows them how "it could be better", they try harder and then see again the possible better, try harder, etc.

    I think it's similar with Te-Ne and how ESTJs seem unable to admit to being wrong/their fault, blaming somebody else.

    Imagine if the Je is the core of your ego and your sense of self worth depends solely on the results you get (Fe or Te results regardless). And then with Ne those results never seem good enough cause Ne is always showing you a possible better future. You need some way to protect yourself. Denial being the choice for many.

    This is the best guess I have so far for their behavior. I hate it very much
    That's interesting. Sounds like a logical analysis. I don't have much of an opinion on dom-tert interaction. I can see that with ESTJs, too... both types have the tendency to try to "improve" others. I think with ENxJs, there's more "guiding" and less "teaching", trying to nudge the other person down the "better" path.

    I do think function subversion occurs in all types, though, to try to make one's own story sound "right" and pits others as the "enemies" against us, if only for our own psychological health... our egos would be very weak if we found ourselves at fault too often. ESFJ mom blames other people for being negligent when she won't tend to her own needs, but INTP dad also blames other people for being deficient when he makes his standards so high no one can reasonably reach them. ISTP brother blames other people when his feelings are hurt after he's been blatantly provocative, INFJ coworker blames other people for being unsupportive when she's worked herself into paranoia, ESFP friend blames other people for ditching her when she's irresponsible... and so on. Perhaps one general strategy is leaning far into the dominant with affirming information from the tertiary to minimize the importance of others' perspectives, like you described specifically for the ESFJ. A positive feedback loop, so to speak.

  9. #89
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    The thing I hate most about esfjs is the social climbing. Aside from that, they can be downright decent once life has hit them. Well, one more thing I hate are the ones who latch themselves onto an authority figure and mindlessly obey. The ones I like most tend to be active in social work and/or psychology whether formally as their profession or informally doing charity work or whatever.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    I dont rememeber posting in this thread and those posts seem really unlike me :P

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