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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I like to dress up as an ESFJ on here.

    Hard to catch one though, takes hours of hunting and then skinning them. Takes a lot of effort by my book, and all sandpapery inside once you put the suit on.

    However when you see the end result, all your doubts melt away.
    You should try the graveyard. Once they're dead ESFJs suddenly find them a socially acceptable place to hang out.

  2. #202
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    Yeah, here's the thing. Just because someone doesn't "fit" within cultural norms does not also mean that they are unaware of them and that they want to fit in but cannot. That seems to be a very common assumption whatever your type.

    I'm just fine with being an outlier and being weird. I'm even perfectly fine with people who don't like me because of it -- they are entitled to their tastes and opinions. What I am not even remotely fine with is people, however well intentioned, telling me what I need to be and do. That presumes they know what I want / what makes me happy, which they don't, or that I'm ignorant or incapable, which I'm not -- when something important to me is on the line and I feel it is worth my time and effort to put on a performance, I can do that. I'm just not interested to turning my entire life into a performance so that no one is threatened by my non-conformist ways (and I'm perfectly happy with the level of social acceptance I currently get from others). People to whom social norms and fitting in are very important see this as fundamentally incomprehensible, like someone claiming that abject misery is actually their preferred state.

    I get that not everyone is equally pushy. However, it's been my observation that whenever people happen to have direct power over me, they are very likely to abuse it, sometimes even without malicious intent -- that's just been my experience. So yeah, I'm very threatened when I find myself in a situation where someone with great allegiance to social conventions is in a position of power over me: maybe they'll keep their noses out from where they don't belong and not try to "help me out", "fix" me, or just outright punish me, but I'd rather be safe than sorry (which means doing everything I possibly can to get out of that situation).
    I'm glad you are aware you don't fit social conventions. And I am glad you are okay with it. And guess what, I am okay with that also.
    Friends, waffles, work

    "The problem is, when you depend on a substitute for love, you can never get enough" - Louis Cozolino

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  3. #203
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You should try the graveyard. Once they're dead ESFJs suddenly find them a socially acceptable place to hang out.
    Strict dress code though, and nobody smiles
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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Strict dress code though, and nobody smiles
    There is room for diversity however. It doesn't matter where the necrosis and decomposition sets in the other ESFJs won't cast judgement upon you.

  5. #205
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    I personally think that a helluva lot of hatable 'ESFJs' are not, in fact, ESFJs, but other types who have been socialised into exhibiting ESFJ behaviours. Therefore they don't wear ESFJ well--because they don't mean it.

    Of course there are some very unhealthy ESFJs out there, but I tend to feel pity for them rather than hate. Sad Fe =
    To play the devil's advocate, a snarky INTX could say that those prone to being "socialized" into a certain type would indeed be ESFJs.

    In actuality, everyone is subject to influence of others. Why else do people shower every day? Or exercise basic manners? It's not for their own health.

    If anything, given that humans are social animals, I'd say that the ESFJs internet dweebs love hating on so much for their "illogical ways", are in fact, more efficient and logical than anyone else. They immediately address their fundamental need to integrate and thrive in human society, rather than beat around the bush pretending to not care about the "petty people stuff" that, when you boil down to it, is one of the ultimate purpose of all the "more important" things they do.

    Holy run on sentences. Ah well.
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  6. #206
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @two cents -

    Of course, I agree that someone can be very aware of social norms and choose to not "fit" within them. On the other hand, the way I perceive society, there are a vast number of mini-social-structures with their own norms and conventions. You might be weird within the scope of your own family but normal in the scope of someone else's. Or normal at work but weird at the grocery store. And so on.

    I am not trying to minimize or refute any negative experiences that you have had, but I do want to emphasize how the same "in" and "out" that you're perceiving ESFJs to be on the "inside" pushing "out" of, an ESFJ - or any other person for that matter - may not see as "in" and "out" at all. I don't think there is such a thing as that clear of a dichotomy or that clear of a desire on anyone's part to press conventional mores. Rather, people press what they think is right - and that may largely reflect the zeitgeist. I don't think it's true that there are a group of people for whom not wanting to fit in is incomprehensible. I think there are just too many shades of gray for that sort of black and white.

    That all said - "power corrupts", goes the phrase, and people cannot escape their own confirmation bias, so leaders tend to try to press us to be like them, even if subconsciously. I don't blame you for wanting to get away from someone who is pushing their personal preferences on you. But I don't think it's fair, or correct, or beneficial, to automatically assign that type of leader an ESFJ typing, or to assume that all ESFJ leaders will behave in that manner.

  7. #207
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    @two cents -

    That all said - "power corrupts", goes the phrase, and people cannot escape their own confirmation bias, so leaders tend to try to press us to be like them, even if subconsciously. I don't blame you for wanting to get away from someone who is pushing their personal preferences on you. But I don't think it's fair, or correct, or beneficial, to automatically assign that type of leader an ESFJ typing, or to assume that all ESFJ leaders will behave in that manner.
    Confirmation bias plays such a huge rule in typing. Categorizing and generalizing are things that people do so naturally as a way to organize the world around them. Once you know someone's type it is so very easy to only see the characteristics in them that you associate with their type and attribute it to that, causing you to miss things about them that may not fit your view of their type.

    Please note: the "you" in that statement is not actually directed at any one person.
    Friends, waffles, work

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  8. #208
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    I felt mauled and mutilated by an ESFJ. I didn't know why until I found out that she happened to be ESFJ afterwards. Then everything started making sense as to why she was criticising me constantly. She considered me weird, but I found her to be even more weird than me and she couldn't fathom as to why I would say she is weird. haha

  9. #209
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    {The Diplomat}
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  10. #210
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    The irony of Arny being and INTJ

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