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  1. #191
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I've actually been devoting a great deal of thought to how Si works and how when it isn't dominant it becomes a generalised arbiter of how reality ought to be.

    Because ESJ'S are so defined by the environment and culture that surrounds them and which they grew up with, more so I think than other types, the nature of their culture becomes more evident through them and they often adhere to the many stereotypes people have about different countries.

    This also results in vastly different behaviour between individuals of different cultures, while at their core being very similar.
    I mention this because while on this holiday I have noticed a great deal of american holidayers as well. And the first thing I've noticed about them is just how extraverted they are compared to even myself.

    Because the USA is, at a superficial glance, an extraverted culture whereas my own is quite downplayed. Which isn't to say that the more negative ESFJ's here are no less frustrating, but it is done in a subtly different way.
    For example there is no way I would ever have gone round the table next to mine at a restaurant, loudly proclaiming: "HI IM SIMONE HOW ARE YOU?!" As a lady from The USA did so last night.
    I think that is accurate. And many people are unnecessarily loud. Not just Americans, either.

  2. #192
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post

    Because the USA is, at a superficial glance, an extraverted culture whereas my own is quite downplayed. Which isn't to say that the more negative ESFJ's here are no less frustrating, but it is done in a subtly different way.
    For example there is no way I would ever have gone round the table next to mine at a restaurant, loudly proclaiming: "HI IM SIMONE HOW ARE YOU?!" As a lady from The USA did so last night.
    I think there is truth to this... about the U.S. being very extraverted than Britain. Without ever visiting Britain, they seem.... quieter and more aloof.

    I don't know how much this has to do with the U.S., but sometimes it seems like people don't have any boundaries here. I'm pretty sure I'm not given off any signals that I want you to comment on private activities, but just because I'm out in public, people seem to assume it's ok. A lot of people don't understand that sometimes people want to be left alone, even if they aren't in their apartment.

    Sorry, I was writing in my journal, and someone made some stupid wisecrack about "good penmanship" that wasn't even funny. Ok, my penmanship is not that good, but that's not what I object to. The comment in itself wasn't terribly objectionable, it's just that... yes, I now most people don't do this kind of thing. You're not interesting or special or amusing for pointing this out to me. I'm writing in my journal because I'd rather be doing that than talking to you. It's really fucking rude to bother people who obviously don't want to be bothered.

    It's funny how people can consider themselves "interpersonally skilled" and not grasp a concept like that. They must have been an ESFJ, because they did something that annoyed me.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #193
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    ESFJ are so corny when they motivate, being enthusiastic, but sometimes it is so darn cute and adorable. I just wished they would tone down their level of criticism and explosive behaviour.

  4. #194
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    I love ESFJs.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  5. #195
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    When I think ESFJ I think "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". Surely, that's a horrible stereotype and they can't ALL like this... Still, the mindset gives me the heebie-jeebies. Oh, and next time I figure out my boss is an ESFJ, I'll be searching for another job, PRONTO!
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  6. #196
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    When I think ESFJ I think "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". Surely, that's a horrible stereotype and they can't ALL like this... Still, the mindset gives me the heebie-jeebies. Oh, and next time I figure out my boss is an ESFJ, I'll be searching for another job, PRONTO!
    And herein lies the problem with personality typing. You don't even know me, but you've already decided that you don't like me and that I would make a terrible boss. Which, I think is really a shame. And for the record, my best friend is an INFJ.
    Friends, waffles, work

    "The problem is, when you depend on a substitute for love, you can never get enough" - Louis Cozolino

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  7. #197
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eport11 View Post
    And herein lies the problem with personality typing. You don't even know me, but you've already decided that you don't like me and that I would make a terrible boss. Which, I think is really a shame. And for the record, my best friend is an INFJ.
    You are right. Being an ESFJ doesn't define everything about you, and maybe the traits that defined the last (very unpleasant) ESFJ I ran into don't generalize to the entire type. That nod to it being a horrible stereotype was sincere.

    That said, when it comes to having an ESFJ boss, there's a slightly more complex process. If they announced they are and ESFJ (highly unlikely), that might just make me extra cautious, because unlike my best friend, they are in position of power over me and can very easily make my life very unpleasant. Most likely the reason I'd decide my boss is an ESFJ is if I detect the behavior that I (perhaps erroneously) associate with ESFJs, the "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". And in the latter case I would be justified in running the other way because I don't exactly fit into many social conventions. Even then, it's a precaution because technically, no matter how my boss feels about when I wake up in the morning or the means of transportation I use to get to work or any other aspect of my personal life, important or trivial, standards of professional behavior should at least keep them from letting their personal opinions influence their treatment of me at the workplace. But professional or not, I wouldn't feel very safe when someone who doesn't like me has tangible and personal power over me.

    In more power-neutral situations I wouldn't let someone's type dictate their credibility in my eyes.

    I'm sure there's an INFJ hate thread where you can bash their jumping to conclusions and being aggressively right (just guessing, I don't know if that's the annoying thing INFJs do more often than others)
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  8. #198
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    That said, when it comes to having an ESFJ boss, there's a slightly more complex process. If they announced they are and ESFJ (highly unlikely), that might just make me extra cautious, because unlike my best friend, they are in position of power over me and can very easily make my life very unpleasant. Most likely the reason I'd decide my boss is an ESFJ is if I detect the behavior that I (perhaps erroneously) associate with ESFJs, the "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". And in the latter case I would be justified in running the other way because I don't exactly fit into many social conventions. Even then, it's a precaution because technically, no matter how my boss feels about when I wake up in the morning or the means of transportation I use to get to work or any other aspect of my personal life, important or trivial, standards of professional behavior should at least keep them from letting their personal opinions influence their treatment of me at the workplace. But professional or not, I wouldn't feel very safe when someone who doesn't like me has tangible and personal power over me.
    You're entitled to dislike whoever you want, of course, but I'm not sure why you're bothering to correlate ESFJ directly with "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions" when ESFJ does not always correlate with "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions". Why not just look for "aggressive enforcement of [narrow-minded] social conventions" and skip the ESFJ label all together?

    I think it would be far more accurate to say ExFJ preferences correlate with tendency to modify behavior, and SJ preferences tend to correlate with awareness of cultural norms. An ESFJ actually can be a huge asset to someone who does not fit into many social conventions because ESFJs are typically natively good at navigating within social conventions. My ESFJ mom is a special education teacher, for example, and spends a huge amount of her time working to empower people who aren't good at "fitting in". She doesn't like leadership positions, but when she is in one, she stresses democracy, harmony, and everyone being included and happy. It's funny because she's very Je but she's not an "enforcer" at all, much less aggressive. I wouldn't say she's a great leader, but that's because she's not harsh enough. It's actually the exact opposite of what you're describing. IMO she's too gentle and accepting when she's in a leadership position. And on the flip side, I know other ESFJs who are great leaders.

    And of course this is not all to say that you might not experience difficulty in general with ESFJ types in leadership positions, but it may well have something to do with the way you tend to think in concert with the way they tend to think that creates the clash. I don't think it's just ESFJ + leadership that creates a bad combination. Maybe it is a bad combination for you personally, but I don't think it's an objective pattern in the world at large.

  9. #199
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think it would be far more accurate to say ExFJ preferences correlate with tendency to modify behavior, and SJ preferences tend to correlate with awareness of cultural norms. An ESFJ actually can be a huge asset to someone who does not fit into many social conventions because ESFJs are typically natively good at navigating within social conventions.
    Yeah, here's the thing. Just because someone doesn't "fit" within cultural norms does not also mean that they are unaware of them and that they want to fit in but cannot. That seems to be a very common assumption whatever your type.

    I'm just fine with being an outlier and being weird. I'm even perfectly fine with people who don't like me because of it -- they are entitled to their tastes and opinions. What I am not even remotely fine with is people, however well intentioned, telling me what I need to be and do. That presumes they know what I want / what makes me happy, which they don't, or that I'm ignorant or incapable, which I'm not -- when something important to me is on the line and I feel it is worth my time and effort to put on a performance, I can do that. I'm just not interested to turning my entire life into a performance so that no one is threatened by my non-conformist ways (and I'm perfectly happy with the level of social acceptance I currently get from others). People to whom social norms and fitting in are very important see this as fundamentally incomprehensible, like someone claiming that abject misery is actually their preferred state.

    I get that not everyone is equally pushy. However, it's been my observation that whenever people happen to have direct power over me, they are very likely to abuse it, sometimes even without malicious intent -- that's just been my experience. So yeah, I'm very threatened when I find myself in a situation where someone with great allegiance to social conventions is in a position of power over me: maybe they'll keep their noses out from where they don't belong and not try to "help me out", "fix" me, or just outright punish me, but I'd rather be safe than sorry (which means doing everything I possibly can to get out of that situation).
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  10. #200
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I like to dress up as an ESFJ on here.

    Hard to catch one though, takes hours of hunting and then skinning them. Takes a lot of effort by my book, and all sandpapery inside once you put the suit on.

    However when you see the end result, all your doubts melt away.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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