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  1. #141
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I respect the strength of desire for harmony, but the point that I am trying to make is that in these cases, "harmony" isn't very harmonious - when everyone else can feel the unspoken tension, it is no longer harmony, even if no one has broken the ice. I think this may be some kind of Fi blindspot that Fe users have. When each individual in the room can feel the negativity intrapersonally, that's an effective loss of harmony too, even if all the interpersonal bonds are "harmonious". Once it gets to that point, there's essentially no reason to remain silent or even to remain in the situation. You might as well just speak up or leave, because you're influencing everyone negatively anyway, and you're creating an awkward stalemate where no one can speak freely, lest they become the scapegoat when they break the ice.



    This is why I love SJs.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're alluding to is that even if people are outwardly "friendly" enough to each other to have functional relationships, if they are aware of negative feelings between group members, there's still some level of a lack of harmony and disconnect within the group? Despite the fact that the group is still "functioning" in the most basic sense of that word?

    ^I would tend to agree with this.

  2. #142
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're alluding to is that even if people are outwardly "friendly" enough to each other to have functional relationships, if they are aware of negative feelings between group members, there's still some level of a lack of harmony and disconnect within the group? Despite the fact that the group is still "functioning" in the most basic sense of that word?

    ^I would tend to agree with this.
    Yes, absolutely!

    When I was first learning about Fi and Fe, I thought about the analogy of a wound. It's very important to make sure the top of the wound is protected, so that no more hurt occurs, and Fe attends to that upper-level bond. But you have to treat the depth of the wound, too, otherwise you could be trapping dirt and germs inside. This kind of situation is like slipping some gravel into a wound while keeping the bandage on top. At this point you might as well rip the bandage off, because it's not helping anyway. It might even be keeping something inside that needs to get out.

  3. #143
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, absolutely!

    When I was first learning about Fi and Fe, I thought about the analogy of a wound. It's very important to make sure the top of the wound is protected, so that no more hurt occurs, and Fe attends to that upper-level bond. But you have to treat the depth of the wound, too, otherwise you could be trapping dirt and germs inside. This kind of situation is like slipping some gravel into a wound while keeping the bandage on top. At this point you might as well rip the bandage off, because it's not helping anyway. It might even be keeping something inside that needs to get out.
    I think you're right. If people resolved their deeper issues (intrapersonal and interpersonal issues), it would definitely improve their own quality of life as an individual and it would probably improve the group's quality of life in general. The tricky thing is how to get people to do this, though. So many people are unaware of their issues and those that are often don't want to confront them

  4. #144
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I respect the strength of desire for harmony, but the point that I am trying to make is that in these cases, "harmony" isn't very harmonious - when everyone else can feel the unspoken tension, it is no longer harmony, even if no one has broken the ice. I think this may be some kind of Fi blindspot that Fe users have. When each individual in the room can feel the negativity intrapersonally, that's an effective loss of harmony too, even if all the interpersonal bonds are "harmonious". Once it gets to that point, there's essentially no reason to remain silent or even to remain in the situation. You might as well just speak up or leave, because you're influencing everyone negatively anyway, and you're creating an awkward stalemate where no one can speak freely, lest they become the scapegoat when they break the ice.
    That's what I meant. I agree.

    I said it was difficult, but I didnt mean that to imply a lack of effort. I should have mentioned that ive worked hard to make sure I mention things that bother me when they do.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #145
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    That's what I meant. I agree.

    I said it was difficult, but I didnt mean that to imply a lack of effort. I should have mentioned that ive worked hard to make sure I mention things that bother me when they do.
    An FJ who does this is worth their weight in gold

    (As is an FP who can keep their mouth shut when it'd be better for everyone else)

  6. #146
    Junior Member atreasuredembrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I respect the strength of desire for harmony, but the point that I am trying to make is that in these cases, "harmony" isn't very harmonious - when everyone else can feel the unspoken tension, it is no longer harmony, even if no one has broken the ice. I think this may be some kind of Fi blindspot that Fe users have. When each individual in the room can feel the negativity intrapersonally, that's an effective loss of harmony too, even if all the interpersonal bonds are "harmonious". Once it gets to that point, there's essentially no reason to remain silent or even to remain in the situation. You might as well just speak up or leave, because you're influencing everyone negatively anyway, and you're creating an awkward stalemate where no one can speak freely, lest they become the scapegoat when they break the ice.

    I totally agree with the blindspot. When a situation like that happens, that's when a ESFJ comes in boldly and more likely than not, will be very aggressive to this (maybe this is just me though).


    This is why I love SJs.
    dawwwww <3
    Make it bold and beautiful.

  7. #147
    Member roastingmallows's Avatar
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    ESFJs...perhaps the only type with more hate than ESFPs...I don't understand it though. I know three ESFJs confirmed, and I'm suspicious of several others, and I like most of them (a lot). My stepmom would be the best example since I know her the best.

    She is one of the nicest people I know, and it is mostly genuine. She is also very down to earth and practical, not to mention intelligent. She is well read and skilled in cooking and other things. (but cooking is my favorite, and the only one I personally benefit from. :o) She is surprisingly open minded as well. I have never been on the receiving end of her negative ESFJ traits (since we get along very well, and neither of us like to rock the boat), but I am vaguely aware of them. She has been known to just leave a couple of times when she was upset, wanting to prove a point but not having the guts to confront anyone about it. I'd rather that than a bunch of screaming and crying though. She is emotional, but usually not too upfront about it.

    The other I know is my girlfriend's mom who is by far the sweetest person I know, but she is so nice I wonder how genuine it is. She is really afraid of offending people and she wants everyone to like her. I like to think it is genuine though. Sometimes I think she overextends herself wanting to help everyone. Hardcore 2w3 as well. Most ESFJs seem to be 2s.

    The last confirmed ESFJs I know is a man, which seems somewhat rare. He is my boss's husband, and he is a sweet guy. An engineer.

  8. #148
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    I am ESFJ 2w1 sp/sx, don't be a player hater!


    One day ESFJs will achieve full and complete world domination!

  9. #149
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Love those videos.

  10. #150
    Member Elaine's Avatar
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    1. They' re terribly closed - minded and only believe in everything generally accepted by society. They never question these norms, and just blindly follow them without having a cool head on their neck.
    2. They are more worried about casual, daily and materialistic life rather than self - development and progress.
    3. They are overly sensitive, it' s too easy to hurt their feelings, and they care about every small detail way too much.
    4. They consider everything that doesn' t correspond with their beliefs bad, evil or ugly.
    5. They firmly believe socializing is a daily need for a human like eating or sleeping, and pity everyone who think otherwise.
    6. If they see a rebellious xNxx maverick in you, they will never stop trying to shape you into one like them just because they want you to be " normal" .
    As for me, there are lots of ESFJ in my life. Some of them are my classmates( girls especially) , whom I can' t stand. When they come to talk to me, they start asking me some shit about if I date someone, if I ever had sex with someone, or some gossips about other classmates. Then they try to schoose a boyfriend for me among my male classmates, try to ask me out for a shopping to " buy you better clothes" ( as if I dress up like a clown) , ask me out for a huge party, or telling me about intimacy. Goddamn it!!! I' m a tomboy. I' m not in a proper age to have sex. The guy I date is none of their business, and the guys in class are just grunts( not my ty. I hate parties, pink and other pink/ bubbly/ romantic stuff. Unlike someone, I dress in normal casual stuff that is modest, but also comfortable and stylish, instead of girly sparkly tops and miniskirts that look silly tasteless, and are just a polar opposite to what I like to wear. And my mom already told me more than enough about sex for my age and lifestyle, and if I ever want to find out more about it, I' ll just ask her once again or buy a book! Now, I have math next, and I need to repeat the theoremas, so get out of here! But I just don' t talk to them and avoid contacting them for my own sake, and when there is a break, I just go somwhere away from them, find a solitary place and read until the bell rings.
    I also have friends, but they are outside school, and I communicate with them not because I feel some need to communicate, but because I like to communicate with them, I chose them as my friends( because after all the things I lived through in my life, I' ve become very selective of those whom I let inside my soul) , I enjoy talking to them, because they understand me, and so do I, they don' t try to change me, and neither to I try, it' s more like sharing opinions and accepting them without trying to change, supporting each other and giving advice. For example, I have two very good friends. One is an INFP and second is an ENFP. I don' t understand many aspects of their personality, but we are still friends, we share opinions and secrets, we support each other, and we never try to change each other. One is overly quiet and sensitive, she has no extraordinary talents, but has a very good heart. She seems somewhat irrational and I sometimes have to push her so that she could reach her goals and dreams( because she lacks determination) . Meanwhile, she considers me somewhat dry and overly headstrong, but we are still good friends, and, despite all the differences, we support each other and balance each other' s traits. Second is a rebel like me, only much more fiery, hot tempered, charismatic and quirky one. To some people she seems outright crazy and overly outspoken, but I know that she is very nice when you get to know her. Sometimes I think she is overly hot - headed and outspoken, doing something just out of her feelings and thinking it out, meanwhile she thinks I' m overly quiet and cold. But still, we also manage to keep a good relationship and not argue over everything. Why am I saying this? There is also a number of other people that I like talking with( mostly NTs and NFs, according to my observations) .So you wouldn' t think I' m some loser who just can' t socialize. I can socialize, and I can really enjoy socializing. I just don' t put it as a primary need like ESFJs do. My ESFJ grandma tells me that being alone is a terrible thing. I don' t think so. For me, socializing is not a need, but more like some kind of information sharing and a thing for a soul. I like it, but I can still live without it. I was an outcast as a kid, however. But that' s because the only thing I went outside my home was school, and the only people I could communicate with are those personality - clashing kids. It passed as I become a teenager and got some independence, and also some social life outside school.
    But let' s get back to ESFJs. Another ESFJ in my life is one of my teachers( she teaches the official language and literature of my country) . She constantly shouts at me, she never likes my work, she dislikes my geekiness. When she doesn' t like my compositions, she says I " can' t feel the language" . But when I ask her what should I do to learn to feel the language, she only starts shouting at me more, exclaiming how sorry I must be and that I' m never going to pass the exams. Also, once on a literature class we were studying a story. I didn' t like the characters and the ideas of the story, there wasn' t enough spirit of determination and will to live in them for my taste, and the whole thing seemed extremely depressing and fatalistic to me( I personally don' t believe in fate) . I had the courage to point it out, but when I said it, she just called me weird. She also told me to wear high heels multiple times( I hate heels, I feel uncomfortable in them, and never put them on) , because, according to her, I should sacrafice my own comfort for beauty, go to the hairdresser becuse, according to her, hair tied back is too simple for an attractive young girl( As if I' m pretty. I never considered myself beautiful, attractive or something, and beauty never was a goal for me) , become more emotional and extroverted, because, according to her, a person must live by emotions. She also gets really pissed off when she hears me expressing my feministic outlook and ideas against society' s standards. And while she is mostly right about my mistakes in her subject, her trying to shape my looks, lifestyle and philosophy just outrages me. But anyway, I have to tolerate it.
    Then, as I mentioned above, there is my ESFJ grandma( in fact, my whole family are SJs) . I love her, but she is also a total personality clash with me. First, when I just wake up, she is already in my room smiling as if she has won a lottery and saying " How are you? " . Seriously, this is overly sugary. I know she does this out of love, but it seriously pisses me off. Can she don' t smile every time it' s a new day? Because it just looks childish! I then as always makes some snarky comment and remind her that she has to get out so I could dress up. Then when I breakfast, she constantly tries to socialize with me. Generally breakfast is a time when I think, make some notes about what I' m going to do today, building strategies on solving some of my problems etc, and, if I got up early and have to go to school, it' s a time when I plain want to sleep( I' m a night owl, while she is an early bird) . In fact I would more likely talk to her if her topics for talk weren' t cleaning the kitchen, gossips, melodramas and soap operas. Also, melodramas and soap opears. She likes them a lot, saying they " illustrate life" , while I hate them. I' m not interested in watching some stupid heroine who has a vacuum instead of brain, doesn' t have any convictions, behavior patterns, and just blindly follows her feelings, mainly love. And it' s not even that love makes you dumb. The girl was dumb waaay before she was in love. How can I even follow such a protagonist? And if only those melodramas and soap operas were well - scripted, realistic, with fleshed out and 3 - dimensional characters. No! Out of all, she picks the stupidest ones! And when I sit in the same room as her and she is watching a soap opera, I' m really pissed off. So, when I try to switch her to thriller/ detective/ horror/ mystery, she complains about amount of gore and how scary it is. When I try to switch to sci - fi, she complains about how ugly the aliens are( she doesn' t even know that ugly is a point of view). When I try to swith to fantasy, she just says it' s boring. From what I know about her tastes the only good things that are watchable for her are scientific channels like Discovery and National Geographic!
    Ironically some characters in fiction I like( like Eowyn and princess Leia) are mostly typed as ESFJ. In fact, they' re the only ESFJs so far that didn' t get on my nerves. I also heard not all ESFJ are that annoying, and I hope it is true. Because most of them ruin my opinion about them.
    I also dislike ESFPs very much, but it' s another story.

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