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  1. #71
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Blame your Dominant Ne for that !

    And darn you for planting the seeds of sympathy for ImNotTooPopular in my mind!!! :steam:
    I know right?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #72
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It sounds to me as though she's trying to do just that by talking to you... are your requirements somewhat too specific? I mean, do people have to psychically guess your personal interests and talk about those only, in order to bring you out? Again, I'm not being rhetorical or sarky, these are genuine questions because I recognize a lot of the way I used to be in what you say.
    No they don't have to guess or read my mind, but she only asked me two questions about me as far as I can remember. They were like gossip-related questions I didn't even want to be asked.

  3. #73
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    Now that some of you painted me as some horrible person, I'd like to say the reason I didn't say she wasn't my friend was because it was mean.

  4. #74
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    I'm going to jump in here. I don't like to bash anyone and especially not an SJ - goodness knows we have enough problems here - but there are folks who can be quite self-focused. They only want to talk about themselves, what they've been doing, buying, eating, watching, etc. They don't reflect on the world outside themselves. And they don't ask questions about you.

    It sounds like there's a huge mismatch in personalities in the long-discussed situation above, but it could also be the woman in question is one of those people. Not because she's ESFJ per se, but because she's never cultivated the art of conversation, which is a back and forth flow.

    I have at least two friends, both EPs, who can be self-focused in the way I mentioned. Sometimes I have to let them talk themselves out. Eventually the conversation comes around. Personally I find that less irritating than being lectured about some esoteric thing like geothermal wells which my neighbor is likely to do. When he starts talking, I head for my door. We all have our pet conversation peeves.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  5. #75
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    I'm not sure who brought up talking about people on a forum where they can't defend themselves. Anyway, I don't see the harm in doing that. It's not like you know who this person is, and if you met her, you wouldn't even know that it's her. It's talking bad about people with people that actually know and interact with them that's a problem. Even just releasing details that shouldn't be released. Now I know that another female coworker has been on her period for a month straight. My response to ESFJ girl saying that was, "Do you think she wants you telling everybody that?"

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't like it when people start by telling me what I'm supposed to think about someone. It's called MANIPULATION, and I hate it just as much as you do. Weird, huh?

    First major MBTI blunder: being INTP is not, has never been, and never will be an excuse for being rude. It IS an excuse for being oblivious to social expectations, yes, but not for being rude.

    How is "you're an idiot" any less of a judgement than "you're mean"??
    I'm not telling you what to think; I'm stating what I think.

    The rudeness issue has kinda been obscured. I am not deliberately rude when she says I am, but things come out bluntly without any padding.

    Thinking "you're an idiot" is different cause it's an introverted judgement. It's like better and stuff cause nobody has to hear it, hehehe.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Griffi97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    Now I know that another female coworker has been on her period for a month straight. My response to ESFJ girl saying that was, "Do you think she wants you telling everybody that?"

    Well that's a start, an attempt to get her to think about the things she says. Good job.

  8. #78
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    You implied you wanted an example of the work dodging. So, in the warehosue there's a stack of sugar involving 10 four-pound bags in each case (40 pounds each) on top of some cans of soup that she wants moved. Yes, I'm a male, but she's as tall as me and probably at least 60 lbs heavier. That means she's at least as strong as I am if not stronger. She doesn't feel like moving the sugar, so she employs her manipulation tactics, probably not in a cruel calculating manner, but they probably just come natural to her. She probably doesn't even realize she's doing it.

  9. #79
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    I'm going to jump in here. I don't like to bash anyone and especially not an SJ - goodness knows we have enough problems here - but there are folks who can be quite self-focused. They only want to talk about themselves, what they've been doing, buying, eating, watching, etc. They don't reflect on the world outside themselves. And they don't ask questions about you.

    It sounds like there's a huge mismatch in personalities in the long-discussed situation above, but it could also be the woman in question is one of those people. Not because she's ESFJ per se, but because she's never cultivated the art of conversation, which is a back and forth flow.

    I have at least two friends, both EPs, who can be self-focused in the way I mentioned. Sometimes I have to let them talk themselves out. Eventually the conversation comes around. Personally I find that less irritating than being lectured about some esoteric thing like geothermal wells which my neighbor is likely to do. When he starts talking, I head for my door. We all have our pet conversation peeves.

    Jae Rae
    Hmm... all well and good, but sometimes the reason why I might talk about myself at length isn't because I'm egotistic or self-centred - it's actually the opposite. I don't want to ask them questions about themselves in case I accidentally hit a sensitive topic, or make them feel pressured to share things they don't want to. I talk about myself in the hope they'll reciprocate by doing the same thing and telling me whatever they want to about themselves, and let them choose what to share, what they feel comfortable saying. I don't have a plan or agenda of what precisely I want to know about them - I don't have any criteria by which I judge them, I'm not looking for things to mark off on a checklist or anything. I just want to let it come as it may, from them as they feel comfortable and ready, and process it as it comes, according to context.

    It isn't really fair that a lot of introverted people seem to see the creation and success/enjoyableness rating of all conversation as the extravert's responsibility. But it just doesn't work that way. You can't just sit there like a big ol' rock, it's a two way street.

    When the ESFJ talks about her "egotistical" stuff, she probably expects you to do the same in return, and would probably welcome it. It can be so different, if the same thing is done with a person who is more able to carry their half of a conversation.

    I've had conversations many times where, if you just took one person's part of it and wrote it all down, it'd look like a stream of self-obsessed rambling about me, me, me. But when you put it all together, it's several people confiding things in each other and in that way, encouraging further confidence and giving consolation and solidarity to each other, as well as alternative perspectives.

    Just saying, y'know, just because someone talks about stuff that interests them or about themselves and their lives, it doesn't mean they're self-obsessed or that they don't care and aren't interested in you. It can often mean quite the opposite.

    And ExxP conversations when we get together can be very rapid fire - it's one of the things I love most, when everything one says sparks off something in the other and it just goes on like that so you barely draw breath. It doesn't seem to an EP (and possibly EJ's as well, I'm not sure) that they're not giving you room to talk, because with like minded people, they know if someone has something to say they tend to dive right in and say it.

    It doesn't always occur to people that somebody actually wants the room to be silent, and someone to gesture with an open hand to them and say "Hey, you over there, tell us - please do! - what you have to say on the matter" while everyone sits on the edge of their seats in rapt attention. And yet, even if you do that, they then complain about being "put on the spot" or "in the spotlight" and say that makes them feel uncomfortable and unable to open up!!

    It just seems to me sometimes that many introverts seem to have such complex and demanding requirements - almost diva-like - as to in exactly what circumstances they can open up or join a conversation... I remember when I was younger and hadn't developed the social skills I have now, it could feel sometimes like I was standing there throwing everything I had at them, waiting for a bite, praying that SOMETHING I said would trigger their interest, but they just stood there, disdainfully rejecting all my efforts and judging me according to criteria that seemed impossible to fulfil without pretending to be something I wasn't.

    It used to seem to me - and still sometimes does - that some introverts really just want to have a talking mirror... they want someone just like them to basically say out loud to them all the things they already think (because it's soooo much effort for them to say it themselves), so they can nod and say "I agree! I totally agree!" and then say to themselves "Wow this person is awesome!" Which... well, y'know, shows extraverts or SJ's aren't the only ones who can create a (often false) image of self-centred egotism.

    Just a li'l perspective there from an extravert, on this introvert dominated board, to say, c'mon, it's not all roses looking from the other side either!!
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  10. #80
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    I'm not sure who brought up talking about people on a forum where they can't defend themselves.
    It was me, bro.


    Anyway, I don't see the harm in doing that. It's not like you know who this person is, and if you met her, you wouldn't even know that it's her. It's talking bad about people with people that actually know and interact with them that's a problem. Even just releasing details that shouldn't be released.
    Why didn't you say this in the OP? Well?

    In spite of what others' have said, I can't muster any sympathy for you. That "fat" attack was pretty nasty and I think you knew it when you posted. No one's that socially daft.


    Now I know that another female coworker has been on her period for a month straight. My response to ESFJ girl saying that was, "Do you think she wants you telling everybody that?"
    If she can't keep her mouth shut, she'll get hoisted on her own petard.
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