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  1. #61
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I've been reading the replies (yes *gasp* ALL of them!) and I have to say

    1) I don't see what's so bad with ESFJ's. I couldn't even tell you how ESFJs 'typically act'. I have not identified anyone in my life as ESFJ, I probably know some, I'm just not aware of their type

    2) OP, I'm sure it has sunk in that people (in general) don't like type bashing here and people are very aware and on the look out for bias and stereotype. (INTPs greatly outnumber us poor EPs and EJs y'know.)

    So let's move on to:

    3) The woman's behavior doesn't sounds 'unhealthy'' or outrageous to me. She's a young chatty girl. Big deal. You work in retail right? Welcome to your working life, until you change jobs. Retail sales is full of teenaged and young women who are chatty, extroverted, and like to talk a lot of chit chat. That's why they are in retail.

    If you can't stand that, I would suggest moving to inventory, warehouse, or shipping/receiving. They are pretty much lateral moves from retail sales...
    I want to publicly second this.

    It's not like I was trying to bring down the hammer on this poor INTP youth. But damn, do you all realize how much collective bitching about extroverts, EJs, ESs, even EPs is done on this forum? I DID NOT think this girl is much more unusual than me when I was youngin. I had to be told to STFU and I meant absolutely no harm to anyone. I was just talking. I had bosses tell me when I was in retail not to be so friendly with the customers. NOT BE FRIENDLY IN RETAIL??!! And if I'd known that me just being me was being lambasted on an internet forum, that's just sending out negativity at some unsuspecting girl who probably is just being young, not immature or unhealthy, just young.

    Also, yes, I am supersensitive to type bias on this forum and if I have/will vociferously campaign against it. This is a multitype forum and threads like these only stir up animosity. Search threads with "ESFJ" in the title and you've got some slim pickings. Yeah I could've ignored it and not responded, but that's not me.

    So I'm sorry I don't see this girl's behavior as violating some unbreakable rule. She seems like a normal girl who upset ImNotTooPopular's applecart. Put me in stocks; I can't dredge up the requisite sympathy. I feel sorry for the girl who we really don't know what she was doing and was getting blasted on an internet forum for something she probably doesn't even realize she did "wrong."
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #62
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes, I know, I understand and sympathize with that, I was just asking for more details and facts about the situation before launching off on an advice gig that might turn out to be totally bum. ...
    I agree that he doesn't seem to be forthcoming with additional details.
    But after being skewered and fried, I'm not surprised.

  3. #63
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ...
    So I'm sorry I don't see this girl's behavior as violating some unbreakable rule. She seems like a normal girl who upset ImNotTooPopular's applecart. Put me in stocks; I can't dredge up the requisite sympathy. I feel sorry for the girl who we really don't know what she was doing and was getting blasted on an internet forum for something she probably doesn't even realize she did "wrong."
    I understand where you're coming from, and I don't blame you for feeling the way you do.

  4. #64
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I agree that he doesn't seem to be forthcoming with additional details.
    But after being skewered and fried, I'm not surprised.
    Exactly.

    I also sympathize with proteanmix's position, but by the same token one of the advantages I find with a multi-type board is that all types can freely express their issues and stuff with other types, and find solutions by getting input from all different kinds of people.

    Whilst in one sense I can see protean's "anti type bashing" stance is obviously a good thing and necessary, I think it can still be taken too far if you're not allowing people to raise issues that they need help with. Even if their initial intention isn't to get help, but just to bitch, if you allow things to develop and people to input what they can, by and by through the course of the thread the person might find they're being helped despite themselves and learning the errors in a certain way of thought which they might otherwise not have had an opportunity to correct.

    I'd say to have a bit of faith in the readership here, cos by and large people here are pretty decent and a mixed bunch, and even in the most chaotic threads, a consensus/solution does usually develop, which benefits everyone. But these things often come initially out of someone expressing something controversial, that might initially put people's backs up. Sure, someone might make a prejudiced or generally unfair post, but there are enough people around here to put across opposing/alternative viewpoints that chances are they'll soon be seeing the light in one way or another.

    This still doesn't mean I like the OP (I don't), but I do think it's kinda ironic when someone's being told off for not showing compassion, when the main reason they're not is because they're simply inexperienced, frustrated and confused, perhaps they need compassion too. I tend to find that good traits and bad are taken up by example. People mirror each other. If you want someone to calm down, stop bitching and judging and show some compassion and understanding, the best way to achieve it is to lead the way yourself...

    My trouble is, I sympathize with everyone! I can see everyone's point of view and looking from it, can't really disagree with anyone! Which only makes me look like I disagree with everyone! LOL
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #65
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Well, the ride question I think wasn't too serious. She wouldn't have been walking home in the dark. Her boyfriend was either working there or not working, so she did have a ride... maybe not as soon as she would've liked it to be. Also, I don't want to spend anymore time around her than necessary.

    I'm 90-100% introverted, so I seriously prefer to be in the responding position of a conversation rather than the initiator. So pretty much I rely on other people a whole lot to make me feel comfortable, bring me out, and to investigate who I am. She isn't doing any of that, so I'd rather have her go away.

    She never picked up on any signals that I don't like her or that I'm not too interested in what she's saying. A state I call self-unconscious as I mentioned before. If you want to get these people the message, you have to blatantly explain things to them.

    I'm type 9. The main theme of my life is I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT.

  6. #66
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post

    I'm 90-100% introverted, so I seriously prefer to be in the responding position of a conversation rather than the initiator. So pretty much I rely on other people a whole lot to make me feel comfortable, bring me out, and to investigate who I am. She isn't doing any of that, so I'd rather have her go away.
    It sounds to me as though she's trying to do just that by talking to you... are your requirements somewhat too specific? I mean, do people have to psychically guess your personal interests and talk about those only, in order to bring you out? Again, I'm not being rhetorical or sarky, these are genuine questions because I recognize a lot of the way I used to be in what you say.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #67
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    About the OP, I'm not a J type. I didn't have some great plan or scheme going. Really, I wanted to know if the selfish, manipulation with negative judgements is common to ESFJs. I guess I was just complaining too. I also don't know much about this forum since my attendance is rather low.

  8. #68
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    I wonder how much INFP's and INFJ's have trouble with their opposites,
    There are very very few people I really can't get along with in real life, and they are usually disliked by many other people too, ie they are people with *real* personality problems, no matter what their MBTI type may be. I'm just more likely to be the one trying to get along with them for a long time and then exploding in their face, while others will be more likely to use rude means to keep them at arm's length at all times.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    But I do know how it feels to be jabbered at incessantly by someone who can't stop talking long enough to allow me to participate in the conversation, all the while being forced by societal duty to pretend I'm enjoying myself!
    Who doesn't? I've been in such situations many times. Yes it's annoying, but I've simply learned the art of going "hm-mmh" at crucial points and letting them go on with the "conversation" while doing my own thing in my head. Annoying, but no big deal, and certainly not enough to go all judgemental and ranty on them!

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I quite agree with you, but sometimes a person just needs to vent and get his frustration off his chest and have people validate his feelings.
    Nobody will get validation from me when they start by demolishing somebody else's character What goes around comes around: you demolish them, I demolish you.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    If I was in your shoes, I would make a joke out of her shallow/bs talk while steering the conversation into Ne/Ti land. Once there, keep it there and take control of the conversation.
    That's what I was thinking too Like for example, go all Mr Spock on her: "Fascinating!" and start deconstructing everything she says. Chances are *she*'s the one who'll want to avoid you after you do that a couple of times

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    To be fair, although the OP doesn't give enough information for us to agree wholesale with the judgement, it also doesn't give us enough to disagree as strongly as some people are, or to judge ImNotTooPopular quite as harshly as some people are.
    See below for my explanation of what went on in my head when I read the OP.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    The more you guys pick on ImNotTooPopular, the more sorry I feel for him.
    It's like almost everyone is bullying him.
    Sure the OP came across as young, arrogant and judgmental. Most people do when they're frustrated. He came in here looking to have his frustration validated, and instead he's getting is a lecture about what a horrible person he is.
    I never got the feeling that he wanted to have his frustration validated. The feeling I got was that he had judged this one girl, done deal, and now he was asking whether he could extend this judgement to her entire type.

    People who talk too much and impose themselves in your life without respecting the boundaries are considered rude by all people everywhere!
    I would agree... IF he HAD publicly set his own boundaries! But he hasn't. He just expects her to know where they are.

    Nowhere in the rule books of polite society does it say "feel free to talk too much about whatever gushes to your mind, and oh, make sure you don't breathe, so the other person can't get a word in edgewise."
    What "rule books of polite society" are you talking about, exactly? To be more precise: I don't think this girl is using the same ones as you are. She probably wouldn't have any problem with someone doing to her what she does to others. Isn't it one of the main points of typology that what is obvious to one type can be totally absurd to another?

    Pardon me, but that is NOT a formula for success in life.
    Not true. I know many people like that, and they are well-loved and succesful.

    ***

    And now for the detailed explanation of why the OP pisses me off so badly.

    First of, the title of the thread: "Are all ESFJs like this?" Bad start. Very bad start. First because the answer is obvious: no. ESFJs, just like all other types, come in all shapes. Just like it wouldn't be accurate to say "all INTPs are like this or like that", it is ridiculous to even wonder if all ESFJs are like this or like that. That's BASIC typology.

    Second because of the *location* of the thread: the SJ Guardhouse. You don't come to someone's house and crap all over. You just don't. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    So, now I end up working with this fat ESFJ girl,
    Fat. Why mention that she's fat? Why do people usually mention that someone is fat when they start a story? Right: to inform their listeners right from the beginning that this person is the "baddie". And you confirmed this later on, ImNotTooPopular: you said she was fat so that we wouldn't go thinking that this girl is one of those popular and attractive ESFJs. Ie: she's a baddie.

    Unfortunately, I don't like it when people start by telling me what I'm supposed to think about someone. It's called MANIPULATION, and I hate it just as much as you do. Weird, huh?

    and she is so annoying.
    Again: I don't like it when people tell me what to think of someone. Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's a fact. You, an INTP, should know that better than most. If you had said "she annoys me so much", it would have been completely different. But no, you said "she's annoying", and that pissed me off big time.

    She basically goes up to anyone and starts talking about simple, boring, everyday stuff like her roomate stealing her toilet paper and how she likes to eat cake.
    Is that supposed to be any kind of justification for your judgement that she is "annoying"?? Because it sure isn't, not to me! I know tons of people like that and they sure aren't annoying just because they are like that.

    And again with the "think as I want you to think" manipulation, by the way: simple, everyday stuff is boring. No, sorry, that's your opinion, that's not a fact.

    She's always quick to come up with stupid judgements (notice the SJ) about me.
    SJ bashing. Another bad strike.

    She'll ask me to do stuff because she's too lazy to do it herself,
    Example? Because you see, now that you have demonstrated that you have no qualms presenting your highly subjective opinions as facts, I just can't take your word on anything anymore.

    and if I don't oblige, she says stuff like I'm mean.
    You sure *sound* mean...

    Maybe she's right when she says I'm rude, but I'm an INTP. DEAL WITH IT!
    First major MBTI blunder: being INTP is not, has never been, and never will be an excuse for being rude. It IS an excuse for being oblivious to social expectations, yes, but not for being rude.

    Second major MBTI blunder: being of any type is not an excuse for being an egotistic jerk who expects everyone else to conform to their rules. That works for you just as much as for her.

    If you want fluff or sensitivity, go talk to some F type.
    Except, of course, that she doesn't even KNOW about all that F type stuff, because you can't be bothered to TELL her about it. IOW, you want her to mind-read you. Again with the egotistic self-centeredness.

    My ENTP friend and I discussed how ESFJs have this way of trying to manipulate people with their stupid judgements, but how it doesn't work with us.
    Except, of course, that it DOES - just not in the way they want to. If you can't see just how strongly you are reacting to that girl's manipulation, then you are being incredibly blind.

    Personally, when ESFJ girl says I'm mean, I just stand there thinking, "You're an idiot."
    How is "you're an idiot" any less of a judgement than "you're mean"??

    I know better than to tell her anything personal or meaningful because after two or three days, everyone in the whole damn store is gonna know about it. So pretty much I just stand there and mirror her level of interaction, by saying no more than boring everyday crap. Of course, sometimes we need to talk about work related stuff, so that works out okay.
    Is all this supposed to somehow make her look bad, or something? Because to me it sounds like perfectly normal everyday life interaction with co-workers.

    Yesterday, she asked me for a ride home later and my automatic response was NO.
    That IS mean. Refusing to help someone without any reason is mean. You can choose to be mean, of course, but don't come and complain when people call you just that: mean.

    Then she said something about not giving a "friend" a ride home. I almost told her, "You're not my friend. You're someone who stands in front of me and goes blah blah blah."
    I understand what you mean. What I don't understand is how this is supposed to make you look any better than her.

    Really, this girl doesn't know a thing about me. I haven't even mentioned a thing to her about my interest in personality theories.
    First, what does it matter whether she knows anything about you or not? Some people are extremely inclusive in their circle of friends, and she sounds like she's one of those people. She counts you as a friend because she spends so much time around you. Nothing wrong or horrible about that.

    Second, you're blaming her for your actions again. You don't share yourself, and then you blame her for not knowing you.

    So honestly, what exactly am I supposed to get from that post?? Because what I DO get is:

    1- You're mean and impolite.

    2- You're incredibly egocentric, expecting people to live by your rules, to know what you're thinking, and to know the bits of knowledge you're withholding from them.

    3- You're blind to your own excessive emotions even while blaming that girl for being so emotional.

    4- You're breaking some of the most basic rules of typology.

    5- And most irritatingly of all: you're manipulative and arrogant.

    If that's supposed to make me think "poor you", then it has failed abysmally, to say the least

  9. #69
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    My trouble is, I sympathize with everyone! I can see everyone's point of view and looking from it, can't really disagree with anyone! Which only makes me look like I disagree with everyone! LOL
    Blame your Dominant Ne for that !

    And darn you for planting the seeds of sympathy for ImNotTooPopular in my mind!!! :steam:

  10. #70
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'm not picking on him unreasonably! I just felt like pointing out the hypocrisy of the complaints because that's what blatantly stood out to me!

    Being an ES myself, I suppose my take on the situation wasn't what an INTP would be looking for, but it's probably a good approach to dealing with one, since you'd be acting in a familiar manner that the person in question would more easily understand- yes, I was a bit blunt with what I said, that's because I'll admit that the tone of the OP and following posts annoyed me a bit, but my advice DOES work!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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