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  1. #41
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I used to have problems with ESFJ's, my mom and sister being two cases in point... but lately I've had a few epiphanies that've changes my attitude towards them completely, and I've learned to really appreciate what it is they do, the way they are and approach life, and to realize that much of it can apply to me.

    I've realized that when I've complained in my life about feeling lonely and not feeling connected to anyone, always feeling very detached and as though others are detached to me, it's because I've turned my nose up at those "mundane things" that people want to talk about, and in the past, sorta snottily decided that unless people want to dive into cosmos-altering conversations then they're not worth my time.

    However, my little sister (an ENFJ) started one of those private message thread type things you can make on Facebook, where several people are invited to participate. She included in it all the people in our family that have Facebook accounts and called it the Happy Christmas Thread. I thought, what the heck, it's Christmas, and I joined in. And I learned loads of stuff about the personalities of some of my relatives that I've known (or thought I knew) all my life. Though everyone was just talking about what they were having for dinner, and where they were going tomorrow, and how much weight their baby has put on this week, and what favours they were going to put on the tables at their wedding in May, I found it curiously enjoyable. And I felt the most included I've ever felt in the family, the most 'part of things' ever. And warm, very warm.

    However, at the time my sister started the thread, she had fallen out with my brother, so he wasn't included. To cut a long story short, a new thread was made with him included in it - but he just bitched and moaned about how pissed off he felt that he kept having his important video game interrupted by Facebook messages arriving, and moaned about how pointless and mundane the conversations were - "inane" was the word he used, in a way that said he thought the people having the conversations were themselves inane and not worth his time.

    Everyone else felt pissed with him because we'd started the new thread because we felt bad for excluding him and wanted him to be with us. We'd all found a new-found closeness through being able to participate in this thread as though were were all together in one room - something that happens very rarely because we're all widely dispersed around the globe. We felt like a family again and it was wonderful and we wanted to include him in it, but he bitched like a whore and asked to be re-excluded.

    Seeing the way he behaved made me see myself in the past, and what a jerk I've been. And it made me realize that I've excluded myself from everything, through pure snottiness and just... well, no excuse really at all for it, but suffice it to say that all the loneliness and whatever that I've felt is just karma really, for the way I behaved towards other people.

    A realization came to me, and I wrote in the thread these words to my brother, feeling at one and the same time both embarrassed at how I was beginning to sound like one of those sickeningly sentimental forwarded chain letters you get sometimes, and yet compelled to write anyway because of what I knew was the astounding truth of what I was saying:

    "I'm always interested in the little things... it's those little things that you share with people when you see them every day... they don't really matter enough to write about (at least you don't think they do), but if you're with someone every day and see them all the time you just get this steady stream of bits and pieces, the mundane everyday things of their life, and they get yours. That's how you keep in touch with someone, and track the gradual changes in them as they learn and grow. It's when we're separated from someone for a long time, that's when we lose touch and find we hardly know each other any more... because we haven't shared those little things. People only write when they think they have something worth writing - but a lot of people think only the 'big' things are worth writing about... great, so after ten years I know if someone's married, how many kids they have and their kids' names, I even know where they went on holiday or that their friend died last week... but if I met up with them I wouldn't know what to say because I don't know WHO THEY ARE any more. And knowing those things about someone far away doesn't stop you feeling alone. It's when you know the little things, that's when you feel a part of their life. Those fundamental things that are what life is all about, what memories are made of. Little things "

    And it's those little things that ESFJ's do and take care of so naturally, so well. When I think of my ISTP step-dad, and how uncommunicative he is and how he'd have no social life and no family life at all and be generally very lonely and isolated if he didn't have my mom there doing all the arrangements and keeping in touch with people... and I think, y'know, how vulnerable he is to becoming a sad and lonely old man if she dies before him because he's unlikely to continue to make the same efforts she does... and I think about how he probably won't die a sad and lonely old man, because my ExFJ sisters will see to it that we all keep in touch...

    Well, I think thank God for ExFJ's. They rock.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  2. #42
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    LOL, I agree with you as well. Which is why my first statement was maybe he should go to a forum, like INTPc, where his reception will be less chilly and responses that align more with his expectations OR reframe his rant into something we can work with. I guess I'm just always aware/anticipating the way someone is going to respond to me so I'm more careful about who I rant and to and how I voice my frustration.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #43
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I have to say - there's venting and then there's calling someone you don't like fat and blowzy in a public forum where she can't defend herself.

    The OP stands in stark contrast of Sub's and Cafe's. What Sub and Cafe said is balanced. That's a vent. The OP was meant to be sniping (read: acting like a sniper). That's not venting. That's being boorish.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  4. #44
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So this has turned into the ESFJ bitching thread.

    Mission accomplished, ImNotTooPopular.
    This might be the most popular thread I've ever started.

  5. #45
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griffi97 View Post
    My grandmother was an ESFJ, probably not a very healthy one, and this sounds very familiar. She loved me like a daughter and I owe her a great deal, but she wanted to control everything I did. In particular, she wanted me to spend all my time with her and she was jealous of anyone else I spent time with, including my mother! If I didn't do exactly what she wanted me to, she'd pretend to cry in front of me, talk about me on the phone to her friends in front of me as if I wasn't there, etc. Her list of manipulation techniques was exhaustive, and they were all pretty much ineffective on me.
    Yes, this is what I'm talking about.

  6. #46
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #47
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him
    The popular thing was a joke although it may be true.

  8. #48
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    For some reason John Lennon comes to mind.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  9. #49
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him
    In one sense he was. Notoriety is a type of popularity. I mean, practically everyone remembers who Hitler was, do they not?

    Popularity doesn't necessarily mean positive attention. Infamous people can also be popular. And I have a feeling that the starter of this thread's name is probably "mud" in a few people's minds now.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    So, now I end up working with this fat ESFJ girl, and she is so annoying. She basically goes up to anyone and starts talking about simple, boring, everyday stuff like her roomate stealing her toilet paper and how she likes to eat cake.

    She's always quick to come up with stupid judgements (notice the SJ) about me. She'll ask me to do stuff because she's too lazy to do it herself, and if I don't oblige, she says stuff like I'm mean. Maybe she's right when she says I'm rude, but I'm an INTP. DEAL WITH IT! If you want fluff or sensitivity, go talk to some F type.
    Lots of people rely on their type to excuse themselves from responsibilities to improve who they are, in this case, being caring and compassionate. INTPs are usually fanatical about self-improvement. If you use your type as a crutch, you'll end up short-changing yourself. FWIW, I'm INTPish too.

    My ENTP friend and I discussed how ESFJs have this way of trying to manipulate people with their stupid judgements, but how it doesn't work with us. Personally, when ESFJ girl says I'm mean, I just stand there thinking, "You're an idiot."

    I know better than to tell her anything personal or meaningful because after two or three days, everyone in the whole damn store is gonna know about it. So pretty much I just stand there and mirror her level of interaction, by saying no more than boring everyday crap. Of course, sometimes we need to talk about work related stuff, so that works out okay.
    If I was in your shoes, I would make a joke out of her shallow/bs talk while steering the conversation into Ne/Ti land. Once there, keep it there and take control of the conversation. If she tries to take it back to shallow-talk, fold her comments back into your train of thought. Don't let go. Like "omg, that's so totally insane! Honestly... what's the big deal? Why do people do [x, y, z]? Do you think it's a [territorial, selfish, automatic, etc] reaction?"

    I have a friend who does this, too. When she talks, I find it interesting that she cares so much about petty drama. I analyze the dynamics of what's going on, or analyze her. When she finishes, I take control of the conversation like I said above. She knows to expect this from me now.

    She also is a nice relief from all the introverted processing I do throughout the day, so I appreciate her for that, too.

    Yesterday, she asked me for a ride home later and my automatic response was NO. Then she said something about not giving a "friend" a ride home. I almost told her, "You're not my friend. You're someone who stands in front of me and goes blah blah blah." Really, this girl doesn't know a thing about me. I haven't even mentioned a thing to her about my interest in personality theories.
    Since she's your boss, you know you can't say that. I think you should mention your interest in MBTI. If you paint yourself to be a high-class intellectual (even mentioning that you hate small talk and trivialities) she'll get the hint and leave you alone.

    I don't believe in shaming people.

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