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  1. #101
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    So, now I end up working with this fat ESFJ girl, and she is so annoying. She basically goes up to anyone and starts talking about simple, boring, everyday stuff like her roomate stealing her toilet paper and how she likes to eat cake.

    She's always quick to come up with stupid judgements (notice the SJ) about me. She'll ask me to do stuff because she's too lazy to do it herself, and if I don't oblige, she says stuff like I'm mean. Maybe she's right when she says I'm rude, but I'm an INTP. DEAL WITH IT! If you want fluff or sensitivity, go talk to some F type.

    My ENTP friend and I discussed how ESFJs have this way of trying to manipulate people with their stupid judgements, but how it doesn't work with us. Personally, when ESFJ girl says I'm mean, I just stand there thinking, "You're an idiot."

    I know better than to tell her anything personal or meaningful because after two or three days, everyone in the whole damn store is gonna know about it. So pretty much I just stand there and mirror her level of interaction, by saying no more than boring everyday crap. Of course, sometimes we need to talk about work related stuff, so that works out okay.

    Yesterday, she asked me for a ride home later and my automatic response was NO. Then she said something about not giving a "friend" a ride home. I almost told her, "You're not my friend. You're someone who stands in front of me and goes blah blah blah." Really, this girl doesn't know a thing about me. I haven't even mentioned a thing to her about my interest in personality theories.
    Well, honestly, I'd like to hear her side of the story. Because right now it's obvious that you're filtering it. Is that bad? Does it make you wrong? NO. But I don't think anyone should be willing to pass judgement unless you give an UNfiltered version of your conflict with this person.
    By the way, last I checked, it's not a good thing to be mean, "I'm an ___, deal with it" is a pretty lame cop-out, no matter what your type. Who knows; maybe you weren't mean. Maybe this person really is lazy. In that case, 'mean' is just a label and you ARE allowing yourself to be 'manipulated' (as you say) by it if you don't defend yourself. (again, an unfiltered version of this event would be great)

  2. #102
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    How it seems this thread is about F-T difference?
    & of E - I difference!

  3. #103
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I'm stunned that others are shocked by the deep offense some of us have taken to his bigoted language. Strong offense was EASILY a possibility with his OP. Not taking his side hardly constitutes "ganging up" on him. We have our valid opinions as well. Emilio Estevez said to Ally Sheedy in "The Breakfast Club" that she gets what she gets when she dumped out the contents of her purse and invited others into her mess.

    I have no sympathy for him. I don't care how repellent the woman in question is. He's proven to be just as unpleasant. End of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I agree with Pink! I'm generally prepared to take the fall if I post something that can be considered rude and bitchy- I'm (wo)man enough to take it! I don't think that anyone should dish out something they can't eat themselves. Sure- there are unpleasant people out there, but are you going to make it all better by being unpleasant yourself? Maybe if it's aimed at them directly, but being unpleasant towards her here isn't helping you in any manner- it's not getting anything done AND it's making some of us mad at you!

    sorry- but bringing other issues like body type into your complaints was basically an act of digging your own grave- it's a really good way to offend people- you might want to keep that in mind for future use Some of us have overweight friends, some of whom are ESFJs, who we adore dearly!

    I admit that it was rude, and you and others have pointed that out several times. What you don't seem to care about is that people can be very mean and latch onto the meanest thing they can think of when they're really mad at someone. It happens. Yes, you should have told him it was rude, but that's all you should have done. You shouldn't have made so many assumptions and tried to punish the person the way you did. You don't have any idea what they might have been going through.

    They probably DID expect sympathy because they're used to running into types with similar issues to theirs on message boards rather than people more sympathetic to those who irritate them. Inappropriate because this was in public? Yes. But the person may have been socially unaware enough to come to think of the Internet as filled with trusted friends. And can you honestly say that you've never been nice to someone who was really irritating you because you either didn't want to be rude or because the person was an authority figure like a boss, but then vented in very angry words about how much you disliked them to a friend to get it out of your system, especially after they did something that really irked you?

    I really don't understand this level of anger. I could understand some indignation, but the level of offense doesn't seem to justify this kind of reaction to me. I'm sorry.

    In any case, I doubt they'll ever come back here for any kind of support or guidance in dealing with people. You may have been technically justified according to standards of appropriateness, but all you've really achieved here is alienating the person you were trying to teach. You may well have deepened their hatred for people who don't understand them rather than calmed it. Is that what you wanted?

    I'll leave you with one more thought... many of the people who frequent message boards aren't used to being held to the same standard here as they would be out in public. They feel more free to be themselves online. They shouldn't, but in many places they can get away with it. Just consider that some people aren't as aware of how many different kinds of people might view their post, okay?

  4. #104
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    What you don't seem to care about is that people can be very mean and latch onto the meanest thing they can think of when they're really mad at someone.
    Thing is, I personally did NOT feel ANY anger coming from ImNot. What I felt was contempt. Big difference.

    You shouldn't have made so many assumptions and tried to punish the person the way you did.
    Punish ?? Where did you get that idea?? And moreover, *how* is one member supposed to be able to punish another member?? We were expressing our anger, hurt and indignation, not trying to punish anyone.

    You don't have any idea what they might have been going through.
    Ridiculous. Most of us HAVE been going through similar stuff. Those bubbly self-unconscious ESFJ types are everywhere. Anyone who's gone through a minimum of real life interaction has come accross one of them.

    Moreover, have you considered that one reason some of us reacted so strongly is because we went through, at one point in our life or another, the very grinding he's putting this girl's character through?

    And can you honestly say that you've never been nice to someone who was really irritating you because you either didn't want to be rude or because the person was an authority figure like a boss, but then vented in very angry words about how much you disliked them to a friend to get it out of your system, especially after they did something that really irked you?
    I'll repeat: the OP did NOT sound like a VENT to me.

    I really don't understand this level of anger. I could understand some indignation, but the level of offense doesn't seem to justify this kind of reaction to me. I'm sorry.
    So because you don't understand it, it's not justified ?

    In any case, I doubt they'll ever come back here for any kind of support or guidance in dealing with people.
    You keep insisting that he was looking for support or guidance. May I ask you to please QUOTE his words saying that? I didn't see any such request, neither in his OP nor in his following posts. What I did see was a desire for confirmation, shared character/type assassination, and information as to whether "all ESFJs are like that". That's not even close to support or guidance. Methinks you're projecting needs and desires onto him that not only he did not express, but that he may never have felt or meant in the first place.

    You may have been technically justified according to standards of appropriateness, but all you've really achieved here is alienating the person you were trying to teach. You may well have deepened their hatred for people who don't understand them rather than calmed it. Is that what you wanted?
    May, may, may... All suppositions. I'm not going to feel guilty for something that MAY very well not have happened at all.

    What he wrote though, he DID write. Big difference.

    Just consider that some people aren't as aware of how many different kinds of people might view their post, okay?
    He posted his post in the SJ Guardhouse, for Pete's sake! NOT in the NT corner, or on INTPc. No, right in the one corner for and about SJs! So of course he expected other types of people to view his post!

    In short: you're doing no better than you are accusing us of doing. Even worse in fact because your concerns are not even based on facts, unlike ours, but on *possibilities* Being open to alternate possibilities, possible meanings, non-expressed feelings, and all that kind of stuff, is a wonderful thing. But you need to CHECK your suppositions against REALITY every once in a while. IMO, judging on what he's written on this thread, the ImNot you're defending simply *does not exist*. So you can stop defending him.

  5. #105
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Hm, Wandering, that does sound a bit to me, remeniscent of certain disagreements I've had with Fe types who would rather die than admit they did something that wasn't entirely justified... understandable yes, but not entirely right. The usual answer I'd get was along the lines of "I don't see how I could have done anything different than what I did" and then a sorta inferior Ti type series of "logical" conclusions based on "facts" (which are actually not facts but their interpretations of facts). And insisting that they're arguing the point when they're actually trying to defend what they perceive as a personal attack.

    I don't mean to get at you because I did agree with your initial summary of the OP, it was rude and ill-advised, but I also thought athenian's post was very well thought-out. It's just... that what I said there is a tendency that Fe types do have sometimes, which what you just said seems to have some echoes of in it...

    IOW I'd say to you perhaps that the attack you're defending against simply doesn't exist, so chill
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  6. #106
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Thing is, I personally did NOT feel ANY anger coming from ImNot. What I felt was contempt. Big difference.
    I believed that the contempt might have emanated from subconscious anger.

    Punish ?? Where did you get that idea?? And moreover, *how* is one member supposed to be able to punish another member?? We were expressing our anger, hurt and indignation, not trying to punish anyone.
    You may be right. But you expressed it towards the member, right to their face. How do you think that made them feel? Certainly not welcome. And what was said certainly could have come across as punishing them for their tactlessness by attacking them rather than simply trying to explain why their actions were wrong or helping them become better people.

    Ridiculous. Most of us HAVE been going through similar stuff. Those bubbly self-unconscious ESFJ types are everywhere. Anyone who's gone through a minimum of real life interaction has come accross one of them.
    I don't mean experientially, I mean emotionally. I meant that you don't know what it's like to be that person, to feel what they feel the way they feel it. No one truly knows this about anyone.
    Moreover, have you considered that one reason some of us reacted so strongly is because we went through, at one point in our life or another, the very grinding he's putting this girl's character through?
    But he isn't doing this to you or anyone you know, so why are you responding as if he were? You're already assuming that the person he's accusing is innocent, and that he's guilty. I may be making assumptions, but we all are.
    So because you don't understand it, it's not justified ?
    Well, it means from my perspective, the reaction was a bit too strong. If so many others that I respected didn't agree with me, I would reassess that evaluation. But since they do, I'm inclined to suppose that I'm seeing something real here.
    You keep insisting that he was looking for support or guidance. May I ask you to please QUOTE his words saying that? I didn't see any such request, neither in his OP nor in his following posts. What I did see was a desire for confirmation, shared character/type assassination, and information as to whether "all ESFJs are like that". That's not even close to support or guidance. Methinks you're projecting needs and desires onto him that not only he did not express, but that he may never have felt or meant in the first place.
    Only the last line is close, and I think it connotes a desire to learn more about them rather than just condemn them. Can you quote a passage where this person stated that they wanted confirmation and character assassination? No, because you inferred that from your perspective just as I inferred from mine.
    May, may, may... All suppositions. I'm not going to feel guilty for something that MAY very well not have happened at all.
    That's okay. I never asked you to feel guilty, I asked you to think about what your actions were accomplishing.

    He posted his post in the SJ Guardhouse, for Pete's sake! NOT in the NT corner, or on INTPc. No, right in the one corner for and about SJs! So of course he expected other types of people to view his post!
    He may well have been doing that simply due to believing that since his topic was about SJ's, this was the relevant section for it. You're right that he probably should have posted it on INTPc, though.

    In short: you're doing no better than you are accusing us of doing. Even worse in fact because your concerns are not even based on facts, unlike ours, but on *possibilities* Being open to alternate possibilities, possible meanings, non-expressed feelings, and all that kind of stuff, is a wonderful thing. But you need to CHECK your suppositions against REALITY every once in a while. IMO, judging on what he's written on this thread, the ImNot you're defending simply *does not exist*. So you can stop defending him.
    Accusing? I never accused you of anything. I only said that I felt your reactions were too strong for the situation, and thus didn't facilitate a positive outcome. If you feel you were justified, then that's okay, I only told you what I saw. If you saw it differently, then that's fine...

  7. #107
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hm, Wandering, that does sound a bit to me, remeniscent of certain disagreements I've had with Fe types who would rather die than admit they did something that wasn't entirely justified... understandable yes, but not entirely right.
    Rather die? No, not at all. Was it entirely justified to blow up like that? Of course not, since I'm not the one whose character was being assassinated. Was it entirely right? Again, no, both because the OP was not directed at me to begin with, and because it's never right to get mad at people anyway.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that I *was* mad. Very mad. For the reasons I explained in a previous post. So the question was not "should I be mad?", but rather "what should I do with that anger?"

    On another day, I might have chosen my alternate tactic: ignore the OP, ignore the thread, go on another thread and let the fuming anger dissipate. I've done it before, I'll do it again, it's my "flight" technique if you will.

    But this time, for whatever reason, I went for my "fight" technique: express the anger and explain where it comes from. Maybe I was just looking for a reason to fume at someone, maybe I over-identified with the girl because of the "fat" tidbit, maybe I'm PMSing, I don't know, and it doesn't matter, because none of those reasons have to do with ImNot anyway, so none of them can be used as a justification for deciding to fight his post.

    Now what? I guess we could discuss whether it's ever a good idea to get into "fight" mode. We can do that if you want, though I doubt we'll ever reach a consensus Apart from that, I don't see what else is expected of me, so I guess you'll have to *tell* me if you think I should be doing something else, because I *really* don't see it

  8. #108
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    However, that doesn't change the fact that I *was* mad. Very mad. For the reasons I explained in a previous post. So the question was not "should I be mad?", but rather "what should I do with that anger?"
    I understand. You have anger too... and sometimes you get angry and hurt people with it. I've done it, and I expect that you will too. There's no shame in it, you just try to improve. That's all we can really do. It doesn't do anyone any good to sit back and say, "Look what I did, I'm a bad person." It's more helpful to say to yourself, "Look what I did, I made a mistake and I need to learn from it."

    I know, easier said than done, but... well, there it is.

  9. #109
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    *digs out INTP from the teacup storm*

    *dusts him/her out*

    Now that everyone, including yourself, has (hopefully) finished venting. Would you like to perhaps rephrase your OP in a manner more constructive for discussion, so we could share experiences and hopefully, helpful advice, in a calm manner together?

  10. #110
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I believed that the contempt might have emanated from subconscious anger.
    And I saw it as coming from arrogance

    But you expressed it towards the member, right to their face. How do you think that made them feel? Certainly not welcome.
    Well, we *were* trying to make him realise that some of his WORDS and some of his OPINIONS were indeed not welcome - always that tricky line between condemning a post and condemning a poster. And it's not a line I walk very well when I'm angry, I totally admit that. But I tried, I swear I tried!

    And what was said certainly could have come across as punishing...
    Again with the punishing. I mention it because it really puzzles me It's just SO NOT what I have in mind when I interact with people, especially strangers online. I really don't *care* about going around punishing people, honestly. First because it's not my job, second because it's not my priviledge, and third because I just don't feel like it! When I get angry at people, it's not to punish them, it's just not!

    That said, I can understand that it might be *seen* that way. Another "way my posts can be read that I should be aware of" to add to the list, heh?

    I don't mean experientially, I mean emotionally. I meant that you don't know what it's like to be that person, to feel what they feel the way they feel it. No one truly knows this about anyone.
    May I point out that this goes both ways ? You don't know how *I* felt either

    But he isn't doing this to you or anyone you know, so why are you responding as if he were?
    That one is easy: identification. I've had my own character assassinated a few too many times simply because I failed to guess how someone wanted me to act so they categorised me as inferior somehow. And as I said, the "fat" jibe didn't help: I'm sick and tired of being told, both openly and not-so-openly, that I should do my best to be invisible, because it's already offensive of me to dare impose the view of my fat body to others :SaiyanSmilie_anim: So do I tend to over-react to what I perceive as "fat-ism"? Most probably, yes. I'm trying not to, but I keep falling back. *sigh* I'll try again...

    You're already assuming that the person he's accusing is innocent, and that he's guilty.
    Not at all. I'm just saying that he's not an innocent victim of some ugly monster. I'd have no problem believing that half of their colleagues find this girl annoying, but that doesn't justify ImNot's attitude towards her.

    Can you quote a passage where this person stated that they wanted confirmation and character assassination?
    Hm, the whole post? Starting with "Are All ESFJs Like This?" I mean honestly, try to distill the essence of his OP, and what is left?
    - There is this ESFJ girl I work with.
    - She's annoying, just take my word on it.
    - I have judged her as boring and stupid.
    - Are all ESFJs like that?
    How is that NOT a call for confirmation and further character and type assassination?? It's not like he's asking "Am I right in thinking she's ESFJ?", or "Does anyone else find her annoying?", or "Does anyone else agree with me that she's stupid?". No, he's NOT asking those things: he has *already* decided on them. His ONLY question is: are all ESFJs like this? Which quite frankly, is an appallingly offensive question in my eyes, because what it means in the context is: "Are all ESFJs boring, stupid and annoying?"

    I asked you to think about what your actions were accomplishing.
    Hopefully? Show him that there are many people in the world who don't see things the way he does.

    I only said that I felt your reactions were too strong for the situation, and thus didn't facilitate a positive outcome.
    Ah, but sometimes only a very strong reaction gets the message accross...

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