• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ISFJ] Help me understand and respect my ISFJ mate?

crandolph

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
20
MBTI Type
INFJ
I'm an INFJ married to a wonderful ISFJ. We're new parents and this is really highlighting our tempermental differences in a way that worries me, but I am sure there are solutions. It's probably not surprising that my parenting style emphasizes attachment, and my partner has a more behaviorist bent. (Example: I'd like to let our son work on his own timetable learning to sleep through the night, securely knowing we are there for him, partner wants to train him through controlled crying, which is the conventional norm in the US, to ensure his independence.) My partner is also moody, including bursts of anger (I really do think there are anger management issues lurking but maybe y'all can help me understand this in a new way), whereas I'm vigilant about preserving a more serene attitude around our son.

Of course I'm full of conviction that my feelings about how best to parent are right, and I read and research constantly. Partner does not wish to do this sort of reading (I can respect that), considers any developmental psych stuff hogwash (this makes me nervous) and prefers to make decisions in the moment and based on what peers appear to be doing.

End of the day, I can't control the moodiness but I do tend to "win" on decisions like sleep-training and discipline -- until my partner just snaps and does something totally contrary. That's devastating for me.

Here is the thing, I don't want to "win" -- I want to persuade. And I also want to really understand and evaluate the other perspective to see whether perhaps I ought to be more flexible on my opinions. (Really.) I want an equal, respectful and loving partnership and I want us to be wonderful parents to our son.

Any advice?
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I don't know how old the baby is, but hormones and sleep deprivation can cause some pretty wild mood swings. It takes awhile to kind of settle into the whole thing. Different people are going to cope with the sudden onset of incredible responsibility in different ways and generally, harmony between the parents is more important to the specific parenting approach. If the baby's basic physical needs are being met and s/he is loved, it's a big start in the right direction. You can work on the details as you go.

I suggest two things: patience and compromise.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm an INFJ married to a wonderful ISFJ. We're new parents and this is really highlighting our tempermental differences in a way that worries me, but I am sure there are solutions. It's probably not surprising that my parenting style emphasizes attachment, and my partner has a more behaviorist bent. (Example: I'd like to let our son work on his own timetable learning to sleep through the night, securely knowing we are there for him, partner wants to train him through controlled crying, which is the conventional norm in the US, to ensure his independence.) My partner is also moody, including bursts of anger (I really do think there are anger management issues lurking but maybe y'all can help me understand this in a new way), whereas I'm vigilant about preserving a more serene attitude around our son.

Congratulations on your new baby. :)

It's too bad they don't come with a help manual, isn't it? Life would be a little easier. Of course, even while there are general things that seem to be effective, each child is unique and often the plan needs a lot of tweaking as you go for each one.

It doesn't sound like atypical ISFJ behavior. You are competing with her inner map of how "parenting is supposed to be done." That's what's tried-and-true to her, and all of your suggestions -- based as they are on theory and reading -- are just speculation to her at some level, not yet validated to her.

One thing to remember is that you are both the parents. I know that you feel your way is 'right' -- but you have only the same amount of rights to make decisions as she does and vice versa. You have to accommodate her approach just as you are asking her to accommodate yours... even if you don't like it. It is becoming apparent to you that just having her do it your way is not effective long-term because resentment builds in her... and this is bad for you as parents AND as spouses. So you should be prepared to flex, even if you think your way is best.

If you want to persuade her, she needs to see tangible results of your proposed methods. Theory does not cut it, she needs to see that it works... with people she respects or trusts. You have to appeal to the people SHE considers authoritative.

Also, I don't know how the "care arrangements" work out, but if your plan places more stress on her than hers does on her (i.e., she's paying more emotionally or more of her time/energy than you are by following your plan), this will build resentment as well. Your plans for the perfect parent have to take her needs into consideration; ISFJs are notorious for trying to please others while internally feeling lots of resentment if they feel their partner is not caring for them in turn.

fwiw, we did wean our first child to sleep independently within six weeks, getting him onto a routine. It was helpful to us as parents just to get everything done, and we are not aware of any damage that was done to him; he trusts us, feels secure, and is a kind and compassionate child for being such a thinker type. Another child might have reacted poorly to our choice, but he did well... as far as we can tell without a "control child" to compare him to. Yes, perhaps the early behavior sets precedents, but do not ignore the ability you have as parents to interact constantly with your child and adjust as you go...the things that seem so large at the beginning really are not, because you're constantly investing and tweaking and making up for any deficiencies that appear if you err.
 

crandolph

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
20
MBTI Type
INFJ
Congratulations on your new baby. :)

It's too bad they don't come with a help manual, isn't it? Life would be a little easier. Of course, even while there are general things that seem to be effective, each child is unique and often the plan needs a lot of tweaking as you go for each one.

It doesn't sound like atypical ISFJ behavior. You are competing with her inner map of how "parenting is supposed to be done." That's what's tried-and-true to her, and all of your suggestions -- based as they are on theory and reading -- are just speculation to her at some level, not yet validated to her.

One thing to remember is that you are both the parents. I know that you feel your way is 'right' -- but you have only the same amount of rights to make decisions as she does and vice versa. You have to accommodate her approach just as you are asking her to accommodate yours... even if you don't like it. It is becoming apparent to you that just having her do it your way is not effective long-term because resentment builds in her... and this is bad for you as parents AND as spouses. So you should be prepared to flex, even if you think your way is best.
If you want to persuade her, she needs to see tangible results of your proposed methods. Theory does not cut it, she needs to see that it works... with people she respects or trusts. You have to appeal to the people SHE considers authoritative.

Also, I don't know how the "care arrangements" work out, but if your plan places more stress on her than hers does on her (i.e., she's paying more emotionally or more of her time/energy than you are by following your plan), this will build resentment as well. Your plans for the perfect parent have to take her needs into consideration; ISFJs are notorious for trying to please others while internally feeling lots of resentment if they feel their partner is not caring for them in turn.

fwiw, we did wean our first child to sleep independently within six weeks, getting him onto a routine. It was helpful to us as parents just to get everything done, and we are not aware of any damage that was done to him; he trusts us, feels secure, and is a kind and compassionate child for being such a thinker type. Another child might have reacted poorly to our choice, but he did well... as far as we can tell without a "control child" to compare him to. Yes, perhaps the early behavior sets precedents, but do not ignore the ability you have as parents to interact constantly with your child and adjust as you go...the things that seem so large at the beginning really are not, because you're constantly investing and tweaking and making up for any deficiencies that appear if you err.

Ah, this is helpful and does make sense. I do think my parenting style is probably more demanding emotionally and physically than more conventional U.S. parenting so the resentment builds -- probably contributing to the moody/angry stuff too. In terms of trying to be more flexible, the dynamic is interesting -- when I offer that we ought to go ahead and take partner's approach on something it devolves into a battle of the martyrs. Maybe my offers don't come across as genuine? I really really do want my partner's needs met, but then my suggestion that I'll be flexible probably sounds like "I am willing to elevate your needs above my philosophical beliefs" which is then met with resistance (understandably).

Also, how the hell do you get an ISFJ to open up about their needs without feeling like a total pest? I try to make it as safe as possible to be open and truthful but something I'm doing that I haven't been able to pinpoint yet is shutting things down. I think the fact I'm in constant problem-solving mode may get annoying (which seems weird because I'd think an SJ would appreciate a solution orientation). What might I be missing.

Yeah we are both still sleep-deprived and both work outside the home which adds stress but we are at least beyond that first "baby bootcamp" period -- our son is 9 months.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
... Maybe my offers don't come across as genuine?

That one really rang true -- ISFJs are true "show me the money" people. N types find it easier to visualize another's proposal and imagine the value of it (enough to trust the visualization!) up front. ISFJs really do like to see it played out in real life, with all the details dealt with, before they commit to change the inner map they have been following.

They aren't really being stubborn, I see it as diligence and responsibility most of the time. They just want to make sure the new direction is not just whimsy or "guesswork," especially where children are concerned.

Also, how the hell do you get an ISFJ to open up about their needs without feeling like a total pest?

Sigh, oh, that's a tough one. I think ISFJs can easily get into a position where they aren't even sure what their needs are until they're not being met and they realize they are angry. Once they have their process figured out, or their responsibilities, they consider themselves capable of meeting them come hell or high water... partly because they push aside their own needs out of their sense of responsibility.

I try to make it as safe as possible to be open and truthful but something I'm doing that I haven't been able to pinpoint yet is shutting things down. I think the fact I'm in constant problem-solving mode may get annoying (which seems weird because I'd think an SJ would appreciate a solution orientation). What might I be missing.

That's hard to tell without details. Female ISFJs seem to have a push/pull tendency. They don't like to beg or demand things of others (and thus can come across very independent and capable), and sometimes they even reject help when it's offered; but they also can feel hurt, abandoned, or angry if no help is offered. They'll even push back in what seems to be an unconscious "test" of whether or not you are sincere in your love and desire to help.

The first months are hard on the relationship, because all the time you used to have together is now dedicated to the baby. Do you have scheduled "alone time" -- just the two of you? Part of her resistance or resentment could simply be because she's losing a sense of your love for her. If you don't have scheduled time for each other yet, just to talk and do something together (just be together), then she might not feel appreciated or desirable. She might act like she's all "responsibility" and might seem to push "alone time" away in her drive to get things done and care for the baby and household; but being loved and being with people she loves, one on one, is a big deal.

So if she feels good about the "two of you," this will definitely filter over positively into her reaction to your ideas about parenting. And if she feels bad about "you two," then that resistance will build.

Yeah we are both still sleep-deprived and both work outside the home which adds stress but we are at least beyond that first "baby bootcamp" period -- our son is 9 months.

Oh good, I'm glad you've made it this far... and your child is still alive, too, so that means you're doing something right. ;)

I bet it's getting to be a lot of fun now. When they can move/walk under their own power, and when they start to really talk -- those are two of the most exciting times.
 
R

RDF

Guest
Also, how the hell do you get an ISFJ to open up about their needs without feeling like a total pest? I try to make it as safe as possible to be open and truthful but something I'm doing that I haven't been able to pinpoint yet is shutting things down. I think the fact I'm in constant problem-solving mode may get annoying (which seems weird because I'd think an SJ would appreciate a solution orientation). What might I be missing.

I'm noticing things in your post like "pest," "shutting down," and "I'm in constant problem-solving mode." So maybe your pestering is causing your wife to react with a J-style shutdown and "distancing"?

When two Js live together, one will often turn into a fake P or they may alternate playing off P vs. J. (Same with two Ps living together--one will often become more J relative to the other).

So if you're acting P-ish, pestering her, getting needy, and trying to penetrate past her personal boundaries, then you may be experiencing what us Ps get when we try to intrude on a J's personal space--barriers being thrown up and a "distancing" until your neediness subsides and the J feels safe enough to dismantle the barriers.

You may just need to give her more space and let her reveal herself at her own time and in her own way. Concentrate on noticing and "reading" her signals when and as she chooses to send them out, rather than trying to force the issue by asking that she open up to you according to your schedule and format.

Just guessing here, by the way. I'm just surmising based on my experience of typical P vs J behavior (as opposed to any special insight concerning ISFJs in particular).

[Edit:] Oops! Jennifer beat me to it, and she has much better personal knowledge of ISFJ spouses and child-rearing.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
I struggle with something similar in that sometimes my husband and I are not on the same page about something. He doesn't like to read. I have to get the information to him in a way he will respect and receive or else, we'll just keep butting heads.

I had a best friend who is ISFJ. She was incredibly stubborn and immovable on certain things. Once she was convinced of something, I don't think dynamite would move it. However, everything was always all about feelings for her. So if you can make your case using feelings as the be all and end all reasoning, perhaps that would help.

One time we were doing historical research together, looking at old photos, when suddenly I noticed the details of one building in one photo looked exactly like the details of the other building in the other photo. So I told her, 'hey these are the same building.' She adamantly, stubbornly, for several minutes, refused to believe me. She REFUSED to even look at the pictures or entertain the thought that what she had previously believed, was wrong. (She had 'previously stored information' in her head that conflicted.)

So finally I had an apparent brainstorm. I said, 'okay, how about if you look at the pictures and prove me wrong?' She was willing to do that, and once she studied the pictures, she realized they were the same building, and she was able to adjust her thinking to the new information.

I had to be careful not to have an 'I told you so' attitude though because that makes it harder for a person to admit they're wrong - and anyway, we all make mistakes, right?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
[Edit:] Oops! Jennifer beat me to it, and she has much better personal knowledge of ISFJ spouses and child-rearing.

I certainly don't have the corner on the market here, and you always offer an interesting spin on things that turns the conversation in a new direction. A multiple approach to the situation might strike on something that will work for them. :)
 

crandolph

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
20
MBTI Type
INFJ
Couple quick clarifications -- I'm the mom, partner is the dad (I know I should have corrected this immediately but I think I was finding it interesting that the flip assumption was made). I don't think the gender reversal changes any of Jennifer's analysis though, it all seems spot on. I'm going to start taking some more concrete steps, "just do it" on some of the sleep training instead of talking about it for example, and asking the nanny in advance to babysit one evening and plan another date with my husband (we had one recently when my parents were in town and could watch the bear and it was a breath of fresh air).

As for pestering.....I'm borderline J and my husband is a moderate/strong J so the P/J analysis makes sense. God it is hard to just sit back and trust that he'll eventually share what is going on in that head! (Particularly when there are all those physical manifestations of distress that my strong N picks up on all the time and wants to fix.)
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Couple quick clarifications -- I'm the mom, partner is the dad (I know I should have corrected this immediately but I think I was finding it interesting that the flip assumption was made). I don't think the gender reversal changes any of Jennifer's analysis though, it all seems spot on.

Oh, snap! :alttongue: Very nice, that's funnier than you know! :)

I'd love to hear how any of these ideas play out and see if gender does impact type expression/expectations. (Especially in ISFJ males vs females. Because ISFJ seems to align with feminine western values, and I am interested how the masculine filters through those.)
 
R

RDF

Guest
As for pestering.....I'm borderline J and my husband is a moderate/strong J so the P/J analysis makes sense. God it is hard to just sit back and trust that he'll eventually share what is going on in that head! (Particularly when there are all those physical manifestations of distress that my strong N picks up on all the time and wants to fix.)

ISFJs aren't my strong point, but I do know a couple male ISFJs and I respect them and get along with them well. Male ISFJs strike me as sweet, nurturing, and full of good humor, but also kind of patriarchal and rigid in their areas of expertise.

I have a male ISFJ coworker who is formally my boss but we get along like peers (he only has slight seniority). We get along by defining jurisdictions. In my own area of expertise, he lets me make all the calls and pretty much outright abdicates any oversight. He just rubber-stamps my decisions. But in his own area of expertise he similarly expects me not to second-guess him unless I can really make a solid case. And when it comes to the kinds of administrative procedures that he's responsible for as my boss, he comes down pretty hard and brooks no opposition. When it comes to administrative procedures and office etiquette, he can come across as patronizing and pedantic. But that's his right as the boss, and I just go along with it. So we get along great.

In their areas of expertise, ISFJs seem to become catalogs or encyclopedias of the conventional way to do things. As far as I'm concerned, that's a pretty strong resume. I don't need people to be on the cutting edge; I just need them to be competent. ISFJs seem to be super-competent in any area they choose as their jurisdiction, so I'm happy to yield any particular jurisdiction to them if they want to claim it.

So that's how I deal with my ISFJ boss. Some things are his jurisdiction and some things are my jurisdiction, and there's a bright shiny line between them. We don't cross the line, and we get along great.

What I said above pertains to work matters. When we're bantering about non-work matters, then there's sometimes a competition. If he has done some reading on a home improvement project, then he'll start dictating procedure to me. But if it turns out that I have some special exposure to the same project and can talk authoritatively about it as well, then he'll listen intently and prepare to yield that subject to me. In fact, I have to watch out not to pretend to have more knowledge than I really have, by playing devil's advocate or just BS'ing. He really will yield leadership to me on a subject if I can prove I have greater knowledge, and I don't want to abuse his trust by pretending to have expertise that I really don't have. (A couple times I've just confused and frustrated him by brainstorming at random without having any particular expertise to back up my suggestions.)

Another ISFJ I know socially is a bit loopier and more freewheeling than my boss (my boss comes across as pretty straight-laced, although he enjoys a good joke too). This second ISFJ and his wife seem to have their jurisdictions pretty well defined; but at the same time he yields a lot of functions to her and she effectively ends up running much of their common life. I think she does it by taking on all the auxiliary functions, which he is happy to give to her so that he's not overloaded between work and home.

For example, one day he was making a trip to the corner store to pick up some groceries; she made up a shopping list and then pinned it into his shirt pocket so he wouldn't forget it. The guy is responsible for multi-million dollar sales of heavy technical equipment, and I joked with him about his wife treating him like a forgetful five-year-old. But he pointed out that he has to juggle a lot of details at work, and he's perfectly happy to come home and be treated like a brainless child and leave the domestic stuff to his wife.

So again, I think the theme is to set up jurisdictions and then observe the lines and let him call the shots in his area. If he's overloaded and sending out distress signals, it might be possible to pry away some of his jurisdictions and make them yours, particularly in some of the auxiliary areas--lighten his load, so to speak.

But I get the impression that it's not wise or practicable to co-pilot together with a (male) ISFJ in a given jurisdiction. Either the jurisdiction is yours or its his, and the other party has to abdicate any claim to substantive input in that jurisdiction (except maybe in occasional individual instances where they can make a real strong case and claim authority by virtue of more knowledge on a subject).

But I have no problem yielding jurisdictions to the couple of ISFJs in my life. When they claim expertise in an area, it's legit. The expertise tends to be based on conventional knowledge rather than cutting-edge knowledge, but like I said above: That's good enough in my opinion. A strong, dependable conventional leader is a true asset. Cutting edge gets dicey sometimes. If an ISFJ can turn in a solid, conventional product reliably and consistently, that's still way above the average.

Oh well, just my impressions about a couple male ISFJs in my life.

By the way, I can't say much about how they raise their kids. In the case of my second ISFJ social acquaintance, it does seem that the male ISFJ takes the lead on establishing rules, morality, and discipline for their children, at least at the head-of-family level. But he and his wife are also a churchgoing couple and tend to both agree to follow traditional roles in that manner.

In the case of my ISFJ boss, it seems like he plays the doting father at home. He takes a lot of delight in exposing the kids to new things and sharing the their fun in little discoveries, and he doesn't seem to play a particularly authoritative role.

So again, maybe it's just about negotiating jurisdictions and then heeding the boundary lines between the jurisdictions. It seems excessively J, but that's how I interact most successfully with these two particular ISFJs. That seems to be the roles we fall into. Maybe that's just me, or maybe that's them and a reflection of being males of that type. Maybe they have to overcompensate a bit and exercise that kind of unquestioned leadership in their chosen jurisdictions in order to be comfortable.

But like I said, I have no problem with yielding jurisdictions to them given their super-competence. And they seem to have no problems yielding jurisdictions to me if I'm demonstrably the better authority in a given area. We mix and match jurisdictions for an equitable balance and then stay out of each other's jurisdictions, and we get along great.
 

Eve

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
64
End of the day, I can't control the moodiness but I do tend to "win" on decisions like sleep-training and discipline -- until my partner just snaps and does something totally contrary. That's devastating for me.

Here is the thing, I don't want to "win" -- I want to persuade. And I also want to really understand and evaluate the other perspective to see whether perhaps I ought to be more flexible on my opinions. (Really.) I want an equal, respectful and loving partnership and I want us to be wonderful parents to our son.

Any advice?

I'm married to an ESFJ and we have a son as well (5). My husband was very hands off, but has been helping more in the last year. I also practiced or tried as much as I could attachment parenting and got a lot of heat from in laws. I'm not sure if was the right choice for my son (he seems happy enough), but it was certainly the right choice for me. My husband and I still disagree, but we also found our comfort zone (i.e. he is better at enforcing punishment, an area I'm terrible with ;)).

I suggest the same thing as Cafe and others, patience and compromise. The first year is really hard, it gets better with time. Good luck :hug:

Sorry, I have no practical advice for relationships with XSFJs. (I need some myself)
 

quietgirl

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
401
MBTI Type
INFJ
Well, I don't know much about raising children with an ISFJ male, but though my boyfriend's fairly borderline on the N/S, I think it's becoming safer to say that he may be in fact an ISFJ.

Some things I've noticed in an INFJ/ISFJ relationship...

-Someone takes the "P" role, usually the weaker J. I have a stronger J, so he tends to take on the P role in the relationship. Provided, we both still exhibit typical J traits, but he's much more laidback while I'm more high strung. He is quite possibly the calmest person I know and has the patience of a saint. Me? Not so much.

-We're both rather anticipatory about the future, but I find my anticipation is less grounded in reality than his - his anticipations are based on "if you did it before, you'll do it again" and he'll anticipate it happening again. I'll anticipate something that's never happened before & this seems to baffle him a little. Along the same lines, I'll assume something will happen based on signs from my Ni coming together (but with no real concrete evidence). He will assume something will happen if it's happened before.

-I always forget to ask him about his day and this kinda bugs him. He wants to give me a description of what he did that day. I found out that simply asking him what he did that day seems to prevent any sort of misunderstanding & makes him feel important. I never notice nor care if he asks me about my day. He doesn't really follow a routine, but he has some things that he HAS to do every day or he'll get anxious. I don't have anything I need to do each day, so this is a little foreign to me & I've had to get used to not taking it personally when he can't hang out or talk to me until he gets his stuff done.

-He has to deal in concretes, instead of ideas. His weaker S lends him to deal with "ideas" with me moreso than a stronger S, but when it comes to solving issues, I have to SHOW him the logistics of it. In other words, I can't just tell him an idea of a solution to a problem - he won't believe it's been solved until the plan to solve the problem is in motion & functional. I'm usually satisfied with the idea of a solution until the problem occurs again. I'm also bigger on giving someone a clean slate, where he's better with having something "proved" that it won't happen again.

-I'm a lot more direct than him. At first, I took him to be as direct as I am but as our relationship progressed, I noticed that he'd hold back a bit more and EVENTUALLY tell me what's wrong (usually after some resentment's built up). Also, when a problem arises, I'm more apt to want to resolve it immediately and he's more apt to need a day to cool off before resolving conflict.

-We're both really stubborn and want to do things our way. I do find one of our strengths is a day after butting heads, we'll both cool off and are able to communicate rather well about our feelings & plead our cases. He can compromise with me as long as I show that I am also compromising with him. Neither of us take well to one compromising while the other does absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.

-I find the S/N difference isn't too unmanageable. The major problem it brings is that I have to get used to showing him practical solutions to problems in order to gain his approval of the idea. For me, the idea alone is enough to satisfy me. If I act out of line, I need to show him through subsequent actions that my action is not indicative of my future actions. When he acts out of line, I'm way more likely to say "Ahh well, it won't happen again!" and forget about it.
 

oasispaw

New member
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
265
MBTI Type
isfj
We get along by defining jurisdictions.

As a female ISFJ, I can say I totally agree/relate with this statement. I have a 2-year-old and am his primary caregiver. I have to clear cut the roles I know a lot about. I do a ton of reading about childcare in books and online. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to my son. His father is at work all day and does not get to interact with our son as much as I do. I'm seeing that he doesn't quite understand how to deal with our son's personality. He is a crazy, fun-loving little guy, but he's also hugely sensitive. His dad doesn't respect his sensitivity and will pick fights with me about stupid things and won't relent until our son is near tears.

I've had to carve my place out when it comes to parenting roles, as well as roles in the home. I've had to set boundaries in the kitchen. Like, no lingering in the kitchen while I'm cooking dinner. His job is to watch our son while I cook so that we don't have any horrible accidents. I've also had to coach on how to give a proper time-out, I always do a warning first so he knows what's going on, he gets it, he's a smart kid. And mostly, that seems to do it. His father doesn't do this though, I had to teach him just the other day!

Anyway, I really think that's good advice, up there. Not stepping on each other's toes in the home and when it comes to parenting may be your savior.
 

Dansker

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
341
MBTI Type
INTP
I am an INTP female married to an ISFJ male.

Fineline and oasispaw, your posts about "jurisdictions" brought a smile to my face. My husband and I have something similar for around the house, and we call them "portfolios". His portfolio is very well defined, and he likes that his tasks are clear and he knows exactly what he is responsible for. My portfolio is far more loosely defined with things popping in and out of it as I take on new interests and lose interest in other things.

Back to the original post - crandolph, I agree that carving out jurisdictions seems to work with ISFJs. Be sure to let us know how you get on. :)
 

crandolph

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
20
MBTI Type
INFJ
no time for a long post, but wanted to say that everything quiet girl laid out really resonated (except I'm the one that takes on the P role). I do get my feelings hurt when I have to prove that I won't repeat a mistake, so that one has been hard for me as I'd rather have the benefit of the doubt (and would like to think our son will be given it, too, ie faith that he's a good kid and has the capacity to improve). But I'm starting to understand this part of being with an SFJ a bit better and am trying to take it less personally.

The jurisdiction stuff can work well in some but not all areas when married (IMO). Neither of us is a stay at home parent and I'm not sure I'd even want parenting to be in only one person's portfolio. House management is easier to divide up, but sometimes my husband seems to want EVERYTHING in his portfolio (maybe it is the "prove you can do it first" thing). Even where it's clear I've got the comparative advantage (like, interestingly, financial management) it took a while before he agreed to reallocate this to me but now that he's done so he's much happier.

Still absorbing all this and gotta say everyone's posts are TREMENDOUSLY helpful!
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Couple quick clarifications -- I'm the mom, partner is the dad
That's what I figured at first, but I wasn't sure. Since you didn't identify sexes, I thought perhaps you might be a gay couple, so I didn't make any assumption.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
I'm married to an ESFJ and we have a son as well (5). My husband was very hands off, but has been helping more in the last year. I also practiced or tried as much as I could attachment parenting and got a lot of heat from in laws. I'm not sure if was the right choice for my son (he seems happy enough), but it was certainly the right choice for me. My husband and I still disagree, but we also found our comfort zone (i.e. he is better at enforcing punishment, an area I'm terrible with ;)).

I suggest the same thing as Cafe and others, patience and compromise. The first year is really hard, it gets better with time. Good luck :hug:

Sorry, I have no practical advice for relationships with XSFJs. (I need some myself)
attachment parenting

Is attachment parenting some new parenting movement? I've never heard of it.
 
R

RDF

Guest
Oasispaw and Dansker: Thanks for your agreement/confirmation.

I wasn't sure whether the "jurisdiction" mechanism would be helpful for dealing with ISFJs in general, or whether it was just something peculiar to me (as an INFP) and my two ISFJ acquaintances. I haven't done a whole lot of reading up on ISFJs. I only know that the "jurisdiction" mechanism seems to help keep my two ISFJ acquaintances and me from driving each other nuts. :)

So it was good to have the outside confirmation.

The jurisdiction stuff can work well in some but not all areas when married (IMO). Neither of us is a stay at home parent and I'm not sure I'd even want parenting to be in only one person's portfolio.

Crandolph:

Thanks for the feedback. It's fascinating to see the ISFJ interaction through your eyes.

Just wanted to follow up and point out:

This "jurisdiction" concept doesn't need to be a static, heavy, blunt-object sort of thing. It's true that many routine duties fall into one person's or another person's jurisdiction more or less permanently. But other duties may shift around depending on circumstances and timing.

In the case of my ISFJ boss and me, I mentioned that we compete or test each other's knowledge and authority on non-work subjects. Well, the same thing also happens when we have to work together on joint work projects. If we have to work closely together, we may negotiate frequently: duties may need to be divided and subdivided as circumstances and applications change, and my boss and I trust each other enough to relinquish or assume sub-portions of a single common assignment as needed.

It's a case of cooperating on the division of labor (as opposed to cooperating on the labor itself). We've worked together for almost 15 years in one capacity or another, we know each other's capabilities, and we have a lot of trust in each other. So we can take a complicated project, parse it and dice it many different ways, and divide/negotiate/swap portions as needed. So I feel that I have lots of input. But at the same time, I respect the "division of labor" aspect and keep my fingers out of his pie once the division is done; that particular consideration honors my boss's need for boundaries and closure.

More generally:

It's taken me many years to really understand SJs (and I was previously married to an ISTJ for 10 years and never really "got" her). But I'm finally starting to really understand and admire their point of view.

From my point of view as an NFP, the SJ need for boundaries and closure can seem very controlling. It seems clumsy and unresponsive when SJs put things in boxes and then limit the access of others to those boxes.

But I'm beginning to see that it's also very controlling when NFPs temporize; or reserve the right to second-guess, tinker, and fine-tune; or qualify all their decisions (i.e., never quite give full support or approval, never quite relinquish control); or create conditionality and "overhang" between multiple jobs (so that a problem in one area halts progress in multiple other areas); and generally keep things up in the air so that it's impossible to simply close out one job and move on to the next.

When considered in this manner, it becomes a "control issue." The NFP is trying to function in a cooperative mode, but SJs experience that as interference and an unwillingness to relinquish control. Meantime, the SJ is trying to be efficient and results-oriented, but NFPs experience that as rigidity and hoarding of control.

Control issues are tough to resolve. They require the development of trust and a willingness to let the other guy have their say and input. In the case of me and my ISFJ boss: My boss trusts me enough to negotiate the division of labor with me and let me lay claim to my own areas of proficiency. In turn, I trust my boss by honoring the terms of the negotiations and allowing my boss to achieve his aims of efficiency and closure.

I'm not sure that that clarifies anything. :) But maybe it will help show that there's more give-and-take to this interaction than it might seem at first glance.

House management is easier to divide up, but sometimes my husband seems to want EVERYTHING in his portfolio (maybe it is the "prove you can do it first" thing). Even where it's clear I've got the comparative advantage (like, interestingly, financial management) it took a while before he agreed to reallocate this to me but now that he's done so he's much happier.

I finally did some reading and found the following quote in "Type Talk" by Kroeger and Thuesen:

Because duty, obedience, and responsibility permeate all that the ISFJ does, the entire living style is marked by caring and concern for others, expressed in an orderly, well-regulated way. Relaxation can come only when all work is completed and, as stated earlier, it rarely is. ISFJs generally schedule their leisure activities; indeed, such leisure may become part of the ISFJ's repertoire of duties.

It is ISFJs, more than other types, who will complain about all the work, responsibilities, or demands placed on them, and yet be dismayed and disappointed if someone tries to spare them such agonies. Cooking a big, festive family meal, for example, or taking care of an aged parent or arranging a class reunion, may all engender a variety of protests or complaints from the ISFJ. In fact, there is nothing that ISFJs would rather be doing. Should someone try to rescue them, they would be hurt and consumed with guilt.

So apparently ISFJs do routinely hoard work and then get distressed about it. I don't tend to see this in my boss, probably because the corporate work environment facilitates delegation of responsibility and division of labor (i.e., my boss is given tools for devolving work onto others without regarding it as a personal failure of some sort).

So yeah, it's an issue you'll have to deal with. Again, I recommend development of trust and also joint practice in negotiating the division of labor. To the degree you can honor his needs for efficiency and closure (i.e., honor the "division of labor" and not insist on your right to second-guess his work once the labor is divided), it will make it that much easier for him to give you input into how the labor is divided. IOW, pay attention to the "control" issues mentioned above.

Oh well, I hope that's helpful in some way. Good luck!
 

crandolph

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
20
MBTI Type
INFJ
Thanks -- thinking about my NF(P) "collaborative" nature as in fact a somewhat controlling "not letting go" nature is a really good insight.
 
Top