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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I had a best friend who is ISFJ. She was incredibly stubborn and immovable on certain things. Once she was convinced of something, I don't think dynamite would move it. However, everything was always all about feelings for her. So if you can make your case using feelings as the be all and end all reasoning, perhaps that would help.
    I have an ISFJ relative like this. She is extremely stubborn and the best way to get her to close her mind to anything is to simply suggest it. She's got really severe anxiety disorder issues. She is very inconsistent in her parenting, lets things go because she's too stressed to deal with them and then blow up and over-react. Now her children have behavior issues and need medications. She makes the most illogical, pure instinct emotional decisions of anyone I ever knew. I care about her but have trouble dealing with her.

  2. #22
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    Anybody know (or have an opinion or theory) if ISFJ's on balance have a harder time with anger/frustration management?

  3. #23
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    attachment parenting

    Is attachment parenting some new parenting movement? I've never heard of it.
    In some ways it's the oldest parenting movement there is. Basically, the idea is that babies come out with the expectation that they will spend their first few months (some call it the "fourth trimester") attached to their caregivers: being held, being breastfed, being near their parents even during sleep, and so on. So instead of strollers an "attachment parent" would use a sling or other carrier, keep the baby in the parents' room and maybe even in their bed, and exclusively breastfeed until solids are introduced at about 6-8 months.

    I did this "by the book" with my daughter- she slept in our bed and made an easy transition to her own room when she was almost 3, she nursed for about that long, I carried her most of the time until she made the move to get down and crawl. My son was not a good co-sleeper so he went into a crib after a month or two, but he did nurse until after he was 2 (although I weaned him, whereas I had let my daughter wean herself) and I carried him.

    It's a nice approach IMO, except that a lot of people who are seriously into it get kind of uppity about it and treat it as a checklist rather than a philosophy. They would have (and did) raise eyebrows at my son sleeping in a "baby jail" instead of with me, although I was being sensitive to his needs and doing what helped us all get the most peaceful sleep, which should be right on point with the philosophy.

    (Probably more than you asked for...)
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  4. #24
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I may or may not be an ISFJ but I do have some of the characteristics. I think sometimes ISFJs spend a lot of energy keeping the peace, which often means ignoring their own needs, which build up and bust the seams after a while. If you can help him vent it more regularly it may help to avoid the resentments. We started doing a "Clean Slate" thing every night, then a few times a week after the logjam was clear, now I just bring stuff up as it comes up.

    Also, about the parenting styles- sometimes an ISFJ needs to see it from an "expert." Can you get some books and share the more "gentle" approach with him? Maybe if it's a "method" he'll receive it better. I can make some recommendations if you like, let me know if he prefers the scientific approach or the "family man" approach or some other, I have all kinds.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #25
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    Lovely description of AP Ivy, and spot on about the problem with so many practicioners having an uppity, even macho attitude about it (which is why I avoid the label, even though I'm like a 70% AP parent). The checklist vs philosophy thing is accurate too. A philosophy can be adapted to circumstances, like working full-time, having a babe that actually likes to sleep independently (like your 2nd) etc. A checklist, not so much, but boy does it give you permission to criticize and judge! It's also, to me, an abdication of responsibility. I've seen some hardcore AP folk check off the little boxes and then, once their kids turn 3, because these parents believe they've done everything they are supposed to do and were such superior parents, but lack any real guiding principles behind the choices they made, become truly weird disciplinarians. And then of course there are the awesome reflective AP mamas like yourself.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Also, about the parenting styles- sometimes an ISFJ needs to see it from an "expert." Can you get some books and share the more "gentle" approach with him? Maybe if it's a "method" he'll receive it better. I can make some recommendations if you like, let me know if he prefers the scientific approach or the "family man" approach or some other, I have all kinds.
    Here is where he's really not behaving like a typical ISFJ. He scoffs at all the parenting experts (except on medical stuff). In fact, my excessive reading gets on his nerves a bit. Anything about psychological development in little ones is, in his mind, BS theory and not actual science. That's his take on psychology generally. What seems to move him on occassion is if one of his friends from work (or anyone in the damn world but me, basically) were to share a current newspaper article on this stuff. Then it becomes a bit more authoritative for him. Mostly he believes parenting is something that will come naturally (very un-ISFJ). Then of course 90% of the folks he complains to about the bear's sleep habits advocate CIO just because it is still what most people do, and so it seems to him that it must therefore be correct. (This does seem ISFJ to me.)

  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    Here is where he's really not behaving like a typical ISFJ. He scoffs at all the parenting experts (except on medical stuff). In fact, my excessive reading gets on his nerves a bit. Anything about psychological development in little ones is, in his mind, BS theory and not actual science. That's his take on psychology generally. What seems to move him on occassion is if one of his friends from work (or anyone in the damn world but me, basically) were to share a current newspaper article on this stuff. Then it becomes a bit more authoritative for him. Mostly he believes parenting is something that will come naturally (very un-ISFJ). Then of course 90% of the folks he complains to about the bear's sleep habits advocate CIO just because it is still what most people do, and so it seems to him that it must therefore be correct. (This does seem ISFJ to me.)
    Would a sciencey book be more likely to sway him, or would he just think they had an agenda? Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small is packed with data. Yeah, it has an agenda- but it's pretty well-backed with anthropological and biological evidence.

    Is he asking that you let the babe CIO multiple times in a night? If so, what about all the medical responses to Ezzo's Babywise method being bad for the mother's milk supply? Would he hear any of that?

    For sleep, The No-Cry Sleep Solution was a GODSEND for us with Thing 2. It was more "low-cry" than "no-cry," but I at least felt like we were reassuring him rather than leaving him alone. There was a lot of back-patting and stuff.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Would a sciencey book be more likely to sway him, or would he just think they had an agenda? Our Babies, Ourselves by Meredith Small is packed with data. Yeah, it has an agenda- but it's pretty well-backed with anthropological and biological evidence.

    Is he asking that you let the babe CIO multiple times in a night? If so, what about all the medical responses to Ezzo's Babywise method being bad for the mother's milk supply? Would he hear any of that?

    For sleep, The No-Cry Sleep Solution was a GODSEND for us with Thing 2. It was more "low-cry" than "no-cry," but I at least felt like we were reassuring him rather than leaving him alone. There was a lot of back-patting and stuff.
    I think throwing more material at him at this point would just be badgering. He gets it, he just doesn't necessarily buy it. I really do believe there won't be permanent damage if we went to a modified CIO but I also don't think it will work with bear, given his own temperament. Even the Pantley put-down/pick-up stuff just got him wound up and hysterical and made things more trying on everybody. For now, on this one point, we are co-sleeping (and there's dramatically less crying with the boob right there) and I am periodically checking in with my husband and asking if our night-time game plan is still working for him. This is not a complete solution, because I fear that rather than tell me when it's becoming too much and saying we need to move to Plan B, even with my checking in, he'll instead bottle up and then explode at some point.

    It's going to be a longer-term issue for us in terms of negotiating these decisions, well beyond sleep training. (How should we discipline for X behavior? Should he go to a private preschool? What's a reasonable curfew? etc.) So I keep re-reading everyone's feedback, particularly Jennifer's and FineLine's, to try to figure out how best to modify my more bothersome behaviors and to get where my husband is coming from. And then my posts periodically devolve into rants or complaints, before I can take a step back again, but better online than at home I think.

  9. #29
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    In some ways it's the oldest parenting movement there is. Basically, the idea is that babies come out with the expectation that they will spend their first few months (some call it the "fourth trimester") attached to their caregivers: being held, being breastfed, being near their parents even during sleep, and so on. So instead of strollers an "attachment parent" would use a sling or other carrier, keep the baby in the parents' room and maybe even in their bed, and exclusively breastfeed until solids are introduced at about 6-8 months.

    I did this "by the book" with my daughter- she slept in our bed and made an easy transition to her own room when she was almost 3, she nursed for about that long, I carried her most of the time until she made the move to get down and crawl. My son was not a good co-sleeper so he went into a crib after a month or two, but he did nurse until after he was 2 (although I weaned him, whereas I had let my daughter wean herself) and I carried him.

    It's a nice approach IMO, except that a lot of people who are seriously into it get kind of uppity about it and treat it as a checklist rather than a philosophy. They would have (and did) raise eyebrows at my son sleeping in a "baby jail" instead of with me, although I was being sensitive to his needs and doing what helped us all get the most peaceful sleep, which should be right on point with the philosophy.

    (Probably more than you asked for...)
    Ah. Thank you. I was taught that also. I didn't know it had a name.

    When I was in my 30's, I found out that I spent the first 6 months of my life in a crib in a room with other babies in other cribs. Apparently, that's how they were doing it in the late 50's.

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    Anybody know (or have an opinion or theory) if ISFJ's on balance have a harder time with anger/frustration management?
    I had a close ISFJ gal friend who called everything "hurt". She did not allow herself to feel anger. Even if she was angry, she identified it to me as hurt. She stuffed all her feelings, could not forgive and forget and weighed almost 400 lbs. NOT a healthy ISFJ.

    I knew a wonderful man who was an ISFJ. He was very disciplined by an act of his will to forgive people when he was hurt or offended.

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