User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 43

  1. #11
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    As for pestering.....I'm borderline J and my husband is a moderate/strong J so the P/J analysis makes sense. God it is hard to just sit back and trust that he'll eventually share what is going on in that head! (Particularly when there are all those physical manifestations of distress that my strong N picks up on all the time and wants to fix.)
    ISFJs aren't my strong point, but I do know a couple male ISFJs and I respect them and get along with them well. Male ISFJs strike me as sweet, nurturing, and full of good humor, but also kind of patriarchal and rigid in their areas of expertise.

    I have a male ISFJ coworker who is formally my boss but we get along like peers (he only has slight seniority). We get along by defining jurisdictions. In my own area of expertise, he lets me make all the calls and pretty much outright abdicates any oversight. He just rubber-stamps my decisions. But in his own area of expertise he similarly expects me not to second-guess him unless I can really make a solid case. And when it comes to the kinds of administrative procedures that he's responsible for as my boss, he comes down pretty hard and brooks no opposition. When it comes to administrative procedures and office etiquette, he can come across as patronizing and pedantic. But that's his right as the boss, and I just go along with it. So we get along great.

    In their areas of expertise, ISFJs seem to become catalogs or encyclopedias of the conventional way to do things. As far as I'm concerned, that's a pretty strong resume. I don't need people to be on the cutting edge; I just need them to be competent. ISFJs seem to be super-competent in any area they choose as their jurisdiction, so I'm happy to yield any particular jurisdiction to them if they want to claim it.

    So that's how I deal with my ISFJ boss. Some things are his jurisdiction and some things are my jurisdiction, and there's a bright shiny line between them. We don't cross the line, and we get along great.

    What I said above pertains to work matters. When we're bantering about non-work matters, then there's sometimes a competition. If he has done some reading on a home improvement project, then he'll start dictating procedure to me. But if it turns out that I have some special exposure to the same project and can talk authoritatively about it as well, then he'll listen intently and prepare to yield that subject to me. In fact, I have to watch out not to pretend to have more knowledge than I really have, by playing devil's advocate or just BS'ing. He really will yield leadership to me on a subject if I can prove I have greater knowledge, and I don't want to abuse his trust by pretending to have expertise that I really don't have. (A couple times I've just confused and frustrated him by brainstorming at random without having any particular expertise to back up my suggestions.)

    Another ISFJ I know socially is a bit loopier and more freewheeling than my boss (my boss comes across as pretty straight-laced, although he enjoys a good joke too). This second ISFJ and his wife seem to have their jurisdictions pretty well defined; but at the same time he yields a lot of functions to her and she effectively ends up running much of their common life. I think she does it by taking on all the auxiliary functions, which he is happy to give to her so that he's not overloaded between work and home.

    For example, one day he was making a trip to the corner store to pick up some groceries; she made up a shopping list and then pinned it into his shirt pocket so he wouldn't forget it. The guy is responsible for multi-million dollar sales of heavy technical equipment, and I joked with him about his wife treating him like a forgetful five-year-old. But he pointed out that he has to juggle a lot of details at work, and he's perfectly happy to come home and be treated like a brainless child and leave the domestic stuff to his wife.

    So again, I think the theme is to set up jurisdictions and then observe the lines and let him call the shots in his area. If he's overloaded and sending out distress signals, it might be possible to pry away some of his jurisdictions and make them yours, particularly in some of the auxiliary areas--lighten his load, so to speak.

    But I get the impression that it's not wise or practicable to co-pilot together with a (male) ISFJ in a given jurisdiction. Either the jurisdiction is yours or its his, and the other party has to abdicate any claim to substantive input in that jurisdiction (except maybe in occasional individual instances where they can make a real strong case and claim authority by virtue of more knowledge on a subject).

    But I have no problem yielding jurisdictions to the couple of ISFJs in my life. When they claim expertise in an area, it's legit. The expertise tends to be based on conventional knowledge rather than cutting-edge knowledge, but like I said above: That's good enough in my opinion. A strong, dependable conventional leader is a true asset. Cutting edge gets dicey sometimes. If an ISFJ can turn in a solid, conventional product reliably and consistently, that's still way above the average.

    Oh well, just my impressions about a couple male ISFJs in my life.

    By the way, I can't say much about how they raise their kids. In the case of my second ISFJ social acquaintance, it does seem that the male ISFJ takes the lead on establishing rules, morality, and discipline for their children, at least at the head-of-family level. But he and his wife are also a churchgoing couple and tend to both agree to follow traditional roles in that manner.

    In the case of my ISFJ boss, it seems like he plays the doting father at home. He takes a lot of delight in exposing the kids to new things and sharing the their fun in little discoveries, and he doesn't seem to play a particularly authoritative role.

    So again, maybe it's just about negotiating jurisdictions and then heeding the boundary lines between the jurisdictions. It seems excessively J, but that's how I interact most successfully with these two particular ISFJs. That seems to be the roles we fall into. Maybe that's just me, or maybe that's them and a reflection of being males of that type. Maybe they have to overcompensate a bit and exercise that kind of unquestioned leadership in their chosen jurisdictions in order to be comfortable.

    But like I said, I have no problem with yielding jurisdictions to them given their super-competence. And they seem to have no problems yielding jurisdictions to me if I'm demonstrably the better authority in a given area. We mix and match jurisdictions for an equitable balance and then stay out of each other's jurisdictions, and we get along great.

  2. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    End of the day, I can't control the moodiness but I do tend to "win" on decisions like sleep-training and discipline -- until my partner just snaps and does something totally contrary. That's devastating for me.

    Here is the thing, I don't want to "win" -- I want to persuade. And I also want to really understand and evaluate the other perspective to see whether perhaps I ought to be more flexible on my opinions. (Really.) I want an equal, respectful and loving partnership and I want us to be wonderful parents to our son.

    Any advice?
    I'm married to an ESFJ and we have a son as well (5). My husband was very hands off, but has been helping more in the last year. I also practiced or tried as much as I could attachment parenting and got a lot of heat from in laws. I'm not sure if was the right choice for my son (he seems happy enough), but it was certainly the right choice for me. My husband and I still disagree, but we also found our comfort zone (i.e. he is better at enforcing punishment, an area I'm terrible with ).

    I suggest the same thing as Cafe and others, patience and compromise. The first year is really hard, it gets better with time. Good luck

    Sorry, I have no practical advice for relationships with XSFJs. (I need some myself)

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Well, I don't know much about raising children with an ISFJ male, but though my boyfriend's fairly borderline on the N/S, I think it's becoming safer to say that he may be in fact an ISFJ.

    Some things I've noticed in an INFJ/ISFJ relationship...

    -Someone takes the "P" role, usually the weaker J. I have a stronger J, so he tends to take on the P role in the relationship. Provided, we both still exhibit typical J traits, but he's much more laidback while I'm more high strung. He is quite possibly the calmest person I know and has the patience of a saint. Me? Not so much.

    -We're both rather anticipatory about the future, but I find my anticipation is less grounded in reality than his - his anticipations are based on "if you did it before, you'll do it again" and he'll anticipate it happening again. I'll anticipate something that's never happened before & this seems to baffle him a little. Along the same lines, I'll assume something will happen based on signs from my Ni coming together (but with no real concrete evidence). He will assume something will happen if it's happened before.

    -I always forget to ask him about his day and this kinda bugs him. He wants to give me a description of what he did that day. I found out that simply asking him what he did that day seems to prevent any sort of misunderstanding & makes him feel important. I never notice nor care if he asks me about my day. He doesn't really follow a routine, but he has some things that he HAS to do every day or he'll get anxious. I don't have anything I need to do each day, so this is a little foreign to me & I've had to get used to not taking it personally when he can't hang out or talk to me until he gets his stuff done.

    -He has to deal in concretes, instead of ideas. His weaker S lends him to deal with "ideas" with me moreso than a stronger S, but when it comes to solving issues, I have to SHOW him the logistics of it. In other words, I can't just tell him an idea of a solution to a problem - he won't believe it's been solved until the plan to solve the problem is in motion & functional. I'm usually satisfied with the idea of a solution until the problem occurs again. I'm also bigger on giving someone a clean slate, where he's better with having something "proved" that it won't happen again.

    -I'm a lot more direct than him. At first, I took him to be as direct as I am but as our relationship progressed, I noticed that he'd hold back a bit more and EVENTUALLY tell me what's wrong (usually after some resentment's built up). Also, when a problem arises, I'm more apt to want to resolve it immediately and he's more apt to need a day to cool off before resolving conflict.

    -We're both really stubborn and want to do things our way. I do find one of our strengths is a day after butting heads, we'll both cool off and are able to communicate rather well about our feelings & plead our cases. He can compromise with me as long as I show that I am also compromising with him. Neither of us take well to one compromising while the other does absolutely nothing to help solve the problem.

    -I find the S/N difference isn't too unmanageable. The major problem it brings is that I have to get used to showing him practical solutions to problems in order to gain his approval of the idea. For me, the idea alone is enough to satisfy me. If I act out of line, I need to show him through subsequent actions that my action is not indicative of my future actions. When he acts out of line, I'm way more likely to say "Ahh well, it won't happen again!" and forget about it.

  4. #14
    Senior Member oasispaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    isfj
    Posts
    265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    We get along by defining jurisdictions.
    As a female ISFJ, I can say I totally agree/relate with this statement. I have a 2-year-old and am his primary caregiver. I have to clear cut the roles I know a lot about. I do a ton of reading about childcare in books and online. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to my son. His father is at work all day and does not get to interact with our son as much as I do. I'm seeing that he doesn't quite understand how to deal with our son's personality. He is a crazy, fun-loving little guy, but he's also hugely sensitive. His dad doesn't respect his sensitivity and will pick fights with me about stupid things and won't relent until our son is near tears.

    I've had to carve my place out when it comes to parenting roles, as well as roles in the home. I've had to set boundaries in the kitchen. Like, no lingering in the kitchen while I'm cooking dinner. His job is to watch our son while I cook so that we don't have any horrible accidents. I've also had to coach on how to give a proper time-out, I always do a warning first so he knows what's going on, he gets it, he's a smart kid. And mostly, that seems to do it. His father doesn't do this though, I had to teach him just the other day!

    Anyway, I really think that's good advice, up there. Not stepping on each other's toes in the home and when it comes to parenting may be your savior.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Dansker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    341

    Default

    I am an INTP female married to an ISFJ male.

    Fineline and oasispaw, your posts about "jurisdictions" brought a smile to my face. My husband and I have something similar for around the house, and we call them "portfolios". His portfolio is very well defined, and he likes that his tasks are clear and he knows exactly what he is responsible for. My portfolio is far more loosely defined with things popping in and out of it as I take on new interests and lose interest in other things.

    Back to the original post - crandolph, I agree that carving out jurisdictions seems to work with ISFJs. Be sure to let us know how you get on.

  6. #16
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    20

    Default

    no time for a long post, but wanted to say that everything quiet girl laid out really resonated (except I'm the one that takes on the P role). I do get my feelings hurt when I have to prove that I won't repeat a mistake, so that one has been hard for me as I'd rather have the benefit of the doubt (and would like to think our son will be given it, too, ie faith that he's a good kid and has the capacity to improve). But I'm starting to understand this part of being with an SFJ a bit better and am trying to take it less personally.

    The jurisdiction stuff can work well in some but not all areas when married (IMO). Neither of us is a stay at home parent and I'm not sure I'd even want parenting to be in only one person's portfolio. House management is easier to divide up, but sometimes my husband seems to want EVERYTHING in his portfolio (maybe it is the "prove you can do it first" thing). Even where it's clear I've got the comparative advantage (like, interestingly, financial management) it took a while before he agreed to reallocate this to me but now that he's done so he's much happier.

    Still absorbing all this and gotta say everyone's posts are TREMENDOUSLY helpful!

  7. #17
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    5,352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    Couple quick clarifications -- I'm the mom, partner is the dad
    That's what I figured at first, but I wasn't sure. Since you didn't identify sexes, I thought perhaps you might be a gay couple, so I didn't make any assumption.

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    5,352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eve View Post
    I'm married to an ESFJ and we have a son as well (5). My husband was very hands off, but has been helping more in the last year. I also practiced or tried as much as I could attachment parenting and got a lot of heat from in laws. I'm not sure if was the right choice for my son (he seems happy enough), but it was certainly the right choice for me. My husband and I still disagree, but we also found our comfort zone (i.e. he is better at enforcing punishment, an area I'm terrible with ).

    I suggest the same thing as Cafe and others, patience and compromise. The first year is really hard, it gets better with time. Good luck

    Sorry, I have no practical advice for relationships with XSFJs. (I need some myself)
    attachment parenting

    Is attachment parenting some new parenting movement? I've never heard of it.

  9. #19
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Oasispaw and Dansker: Thanks for your agreement/confirmation.

    I wasn't sure whether the "jurisdiction" mechanism would be helpful for dealing with ISFJs in general, or whether it was just something peculiar to me (as an INFP) and my two ISFJ acquaintances. I haven't done a whole lot of reading up on ISFJs. I only know that the "jurisdiction" mechanism seems to help keep my two ISFJ acquaintances and me from driving each other nuts.

    So it was good to have the outside confirmation.

    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    The jurisdiction stuff can work well in some but not all areas when married (IMO). Neither of us is a stay at home parent and I'm not sure I'd even want parenting to be in only one person's portfolio.
    Crandolph:

    Thanks for the feedback. It's fascinating to see the ISFJ interaction through your eyes.

    Just wanted to follow up and point out:

    This "jurisdiction" concept doesn't need to be a static, heavy, blunt-object sort of thing. It's true that many routine duties fall into one person's or another person's jurisdiction more or less permanently. But other duties may shift around depending on circumstances and timing.

    In the case of my ISFJ boss and me, I mentioned that we compete or test each other's knowledge and authority on non-work subjects. Well, the same thing also happens when we have to work together on joint work projects. If we have to work closely together, we may negotiate frequently: duties may need to be divided and subdivided as circumstances and applications change, and my boss and I trust each other enough to relinquish or assume sub-portions of a single common assignment as needed.

    It's a case of cooperating on the division of labor (as opposed to cooperating on the labor itself). We've worked together for almost 15 years in one capacity or another, we know each other's capabilities, and we have a lot of trust in each other. So we can take a complicated project, parse it and dice it many different ways, and divide/negotiate/swap portions as needed. So I feel that I have lots of input. But at the same time, I respect the "division of labor" aspect and keep my fingers out of his pie once the division is done; that particular consideration honors my boss's need for boundaries and closure.

    More generally:

    It's taken me many years to really understand SJs (and I was previously married to an ISTJ for 10 years and never really "got" her). But I'm finally starting to really understand and admire their point of view.

    From my point of view as an NFP, the SJ need for boundaries and closure can seem very controlling. It seems clumsy and unresponsive when SJs put things in boxes and then limit the access of others to those boxes.

    But I'm beginning to see that it's also very controlling when NFPs temporize; or reserve the right to second-guess, tinker, and fine-tune; or qualify all their decisions (i.e., never quite give full support or approval, never quite relinquish control); or create conditionality and "overhang" between multiple jobs (so that a problem in one area halts progress in multiple other areas); and generally keep things up in the air so that it's impossible to simply close out one job and move on to the next.

    When considered in this manner, it becomes a "control issue." The NFP is trying to function in a cooperative mode, but SJs experience that as interference and an unwillingness to relinquish control. Meantime, the SJ is trying to be efficient and results-oriented, but NFPs experience that as rigidity and hoarding of control.

    Control issues are tough to resolve. They require the development of trust and a willingness to let the other guy have their say and input. In the case of me and my ISFJ boss: My boss trusts me enough to negotiate the division of labor with me and let me lay claim to my own areas of proficiency. In turn, I trust my boss by honoring the terms of the negotiations and allowing my boss to achieve his aims of efficiency and closure.

    I'm not sure that that clarifies anything. But maybe it will help show that there's more give-and-take to this interaction than it might seem at first glance.

    Quote Originally Posted by crandolph View Post
    House management is easier to divide up, but sometimes my husband seems to want EVERYTHING in his portfolio (maybe it is the "prove you can do it first" thing). Even where it's clear I've got the comparative advantage (like, interestingly, financial management) it took a while before he agreed to reallocate this to me but now that he's done so he's much happier.
    I finally did some reading and found the following quote in "Type Talk" by Kroeger and Thuesen:

    Because duty, obedience, and responsibility permeate all that the ISFJ does, the entire living style is marked by caring and concern for others, expressed in an orderly, well-regulated way. Relaxation can come only when all work is completed and, as stated earlier, it rarely is. ISFJs generally schedule their leisure activities; indeed, such leisure may become part of the ISFJ's repertoire of duties.

    It is ISFJs, more than other types, who will complain about all the work, responsibilities, or demands placed on them, and yet be dismayed and disappointed if someone tries to spare them such agonies. Cooking a big, festive family meal, for example, or taking care of an aged parent or arranging a class reunion, may all engender a variety of protests or complaints from the ISFJ. In fact, there is nothing that ISFJs would rather be doing. Should someone try to rescue them, they would be hurt and consumed with guilt.
    So apparently ISFJs do routinely hoard work and then get distressed about it. I don't tend to see this in my boss, probably because the corporate work environment facilitates delegation of responsibility and division of labor (i.e., my boss is given tools for devolving work onto others without regarding it as a personal failure of some sort).

    So yeah, it's an issue you'll have to deal with. Again, I recommend development of trust and also joint practice in negotiating the division of labor. To the degree you can honor his needs for efficiency and closure (i.e., honor the "division of labor" and not insist on your right to second-guess his work once the labor is divided), it will make it that much easier for him to give you input into how the labor is divided. IOW, pay attention to the "control" issues mentioned above.

    Oh well, I hope that's helpful in some way. Good luck!

  10. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Thanks -- thinking about my NF(P) "collaborative" nature as in fact a somewhat controlling "not letting go" nature is a really good insight.

Similar Threads

  1. [INFJ] Help me understand my angry INFJ parents
    By Kho in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 05-02-2016, 12:24 AM
  2. [INFJ] Help me understand my INFJ boss.
    By Santosha in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 04-04-2012, 12:30 PM
  3. Help me understand my friend
    By Flux in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-18-2011, 11:26 AM
  4. [ISFP] Help me understand ISFPs?
    By EsoteriEccentri in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-19-2011, 03:10 AM
  5. Help me understand my son
    By alicia91 in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 01-10-2008, 08:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO