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  1. #21
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    strange... my best friend is a very ESTJy ESTJ and we get along quite well... we actually ask each others advice on things that are the other's strengths all of the time!

    She never objected to me trying anything new as long as it seemed sensible, and if it didn't she just watched how it turned out for me I never objected to her being anal retentive because it generally benefited me!

    Wonder if cooperation is easier for girls than guys though in a way?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #22
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Funny you say this. The ESTP that I work with absolutely hates the ESTJ.

    The ESTP makes up new ways to do things. He does it whatever way he feels like doing it on that day. And the fact that he doesn't do it the same way every day drives the ESTJ nuts. The ESTJ is always trying to keep tabs on the ESTP, but he can't keep logical tabs because the ESTP is always "off schedule". The ESTJ expects everyone to do A, then B, then C, then D, then E, then go home.

    The ESTP does A, then E, then C, then D, then B, then goes home. ESTJ system malfunction. He always accuses the ESTP of "marching to the beat of his own drum". The ESTP says the same thing I do: I'm going to do it the way that makes sense to me, not the way that makes sense to him. And I'll still get the job done equally as well. Just look at my results.

    The difference that I notice between the ESTP and myself is that I come up with my "best methods" because those are the methods that I truly believe are the most efficient way of doing my job. There's really no other reason behind my method. I analyze things and come up with what I feel is the absolute very best way do to things - for me. If someone else wants to use a different method (as long as their results are good), then go for it. I won't knock you for it. But, I believe my way is the best - because I've thought about it and analyzed it in very great detail. I've thought about every other possible way to do it (even if there's 100 different ways), and I've determined this is the best way.

    The ESTP, on the other hand, seems to include an element of "having fun" into his strategy. If he thinks it will be more fun/enjoyable to do things different today than he did yesterday, then he will. He has to have fun in what he's doing. But, somehow he does still get the job done very well (and the ESTJ disagrees).
    Wow that has to suck.

    That's why I sometimes have a problem with xSTJ stereotypes. I willl admit that I can be tight with things that are critical to project completion- but I respect someone's way of doing things unless it's not meeting some objective. If anything I can learn to do something better.

    Sometimes people give me a reason to have to put some reins on them, tho. Incompetence cannot be left to roam free.

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    strange... my best friend is a very ESTJy ESTJ and we get along quite well... we actually ask each others advice on things that are the other's strengths all of the time!

    She never objected to me trying anything new as long as it seemed sensible, and if it didn't she just watched how it turned out for me I never objected to her being anal retentive because it generally benefited me!

    Wonder if cooperation is easier for girls than guys though in a way?
    I'd say it's more because you and her are friends. The situation I'm describing is a boss/employee situation. The dynamics are quite a bit different. I've found ESTJ's (the ones in my family) to be very cordial and fairly easy going in their friendships. When they're "at work" or in one of their "let's get stuff done today" modes, it's quite different.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #24
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    I suppose this ties into the post on ESTJ Courtney Love I made earlier...but in general, one of the reasons I find ESTJs fairly easy to deal with, aside from the energy expenditure involved, is that I seem to be able to discern fairly easily when they are "serious" from when they are "bullshiting."

    ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    I suppose this ties into the post on ESTJ Courtney Love I made earlier...but in general, one of the reasons I find ESTJs fairly easy to deal with, aside from the energy expenditure involved, is that I seem to be able to discern fairly easily when they are "serious" from when they are "bullshiting."

    ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...
    Yeah, I find it confusing. I also can discern the difference between their "seriousness" and their BS (sometimes), but it still confuses me because it makes me feel like they aren't authentic and genuine. Like I start to wonder how much I can really trust them if they can just switch back and forth so easily. I watch them BS people and yeah, I guess it's a fairly effective trait to have in some situations, but I've listened to certain ESTJ's just BS'ing away and I think to myself, "You are so full of crap and you really think that nobody can see it!" And what really irks me is when the BS'ing session is over and 5 minutes later they are talking about how they always "do things the right way" - like they really think that they are an extremely ethical person. You just BS'd someone out of a bunch of money, then you laughed about it, then you claimed that you're a very ethical person. All of those things cannot be true. That's why I find it confusing.

    And BTW, I'm not just trying to roast on ESTJ's. Like I said, I have 3 in my family whom I love very much. It's just that INTP's are very good at "seeing" these things - reading between the lines, if you will. We can see it from a mile away.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #26
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...
    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Yeah, I find it confusing. I also can discern the difference between their "seriousness" and their BS (sometimes), but it still confuses me because it makes me feel like they aren't authentic and genuine. Like I start to wonder how much I can really trust them if they can just switch back and forth so easily. I watch them BS people and yeah, I guess it's a fairly effective trait to have in some situations, but I've listened to certain ESTJ's just BS'ing away and I think to myself, "You are so full of crap and you really think that nobody can see it!" And what really irks me is when the BS'ing session is over and 5 minutes later they are talking about how they always "do things the right way" - like they really think that they are an extremely ethical person. You just BS'd someone out of a bunch of money, then you laughed about it, then you claimed that you're a very ethical person. All of those things cannot be true. That's why I find it confusing.
    If this is what ESTJs act like, then I'm not one. I can't BS to save my life*. I am honest to the point of being blunt, honesty is the trait I care most about in a person, and therefore, when people are habitually dishonest, I automatically dislike them. I honestly have no idea why all of your ESTJ examples are like this when I am the polar opposite.

    And BTW, I'm not just trying to roast on ESTJ's.
    I understand - though at this point, I think we're past the problem solving stage and into the cathartic venting stage. Is there any other way we can help you with this ESTJ stuff? Do you have any more questions?

    *Literally. If I was about to die, but could save myself by BSing, the idea that I was even ALLOWED to BS wouldn't cross my mind. I would die ignorant of the possibility.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    If this is what ESTJs act like, then I'm not one. I can't BS to save my life*. I am honest to the point of being blunt, honesty is the trait I care most about in a person, and therefore, when people are habitually dishonest, I automatically dislike them.
    I'm NOT talking about dishonesty. I'm talking about ESTJ HUMOR, which is often very macho and over-the-top...

  8. #28
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    I'm NOT talking about dishonesty. I'm talking about ESTJ HUMOR, which is often very macho and over-the-top...
    Sorry about that... I guess the fact that what INTPness mentioned right after that was dishonesty kind of threw me off of what you were intending.

    Yeah, I think you're right about that. A lot of people don't get my sense of humor, especially when they're my age or younger. But mid-twenties to early thirties people do, for whatever reason.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #29
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    I agree with this- I'd say it goes for ISTJs as well:

    I suppose this ties into the post on ESTJ Courtney Love I made earlier...but in general, one of the reasons I find ESTJs fairly easy to deal with, aside from the energy expenditure involved, is that I seem to be able to discern fairly easily when they are "serious" from when they are "bullshiting."

    ESTJs, esp. bright ESTJ women, do a great deal of both, and switch back and forth all the time without warning. Some types seem to find this confusing...

    I'm like that. I'm glad you guys are explaining it. Sometimes I feel bad about it, and I know it frustrates the staff, but I can't help it. When it's time to work, it's time to work.

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    I understand - though at this point, I think we're past the problem solving stage and into the cathartic venting stage. Is there any other way we can help you with this ESTJ stuff? Do you have any more questions?
    LOL. No more questions really. You guys did a great job of helping me to see where he is coming from - so, again, thanks! The other posts I've made have mostly been "in response" to what other people have posted.


    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    If this is what ESTJs act like, then I'm not one. I can't BS to save my life*. I am honest to the point of being blunt, honesty is the trait I care most about in a person, and therefore, when people are habitually dishonest, I automatically dislike them. I honestly have no idea why all of your ESTJ examples are like this when I am the polar opposite.
    I probably used a bad example of "cheating someone out of money". Some examples of things I've seen (and these are actual examples):

    -Paying people "under the table" in order to save yourself money, then saying things like "these big companies that are all filthy rich only get that way by cheating and looking for loopholes! Bastards!"
    -"Playing nice" with someone that you hate because you need them to approve your paperwork/job. Then as soon as they approve it, you hate them and start talking about them again
    -Asking someone to do something with a smile that you know they don't want to do. If they say "no", you talk smack about them. If they say yes, then you say something like "suckkkkkkkerrrr!!!" LOL.

    I'm not claiming superior morality here. I've done my share of things like this for sure. So, it's not about venting. It's just interesting conversation and trying to understand the "methods of ESTJ madness". We all have ways of trying to "get our way" and convince people of something that we really want, etc, etc.

    But, like I said, in terms of the OP, you guys have answered a lot of the questions I had. The thread kind of morphed into a "let's just discuss ESTJ's and the way they think" and that's probably my own fault.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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