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  1. #11
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    It's kind of a myth that SJs are traditional by nature. They just prefer to take in the same type of information repeatedly and relate it to an internal map of what they've experienced before (Si), which doesn't necessarily result in traditionalism anywhere near as often as people think it does.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    I noticed that at least half SJs aren't traditional, thank god , my mom is ISTJ, sister and a friend - and they all are very non traditional... but still far from how i am non traditional...

  3. #13
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I
    I'm definitely not a person who does things because 'it's what's done'. I HATE that. I do things because there's a good reason to do it. It has to make some kind of sense to me and the end result that I'm trying to attain.
    I think that makes for a good description of the diffence between a healthy ISTJ and an unhealthy one.

  4. #14
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I think that makes for a good description of the diffence between a healthy ISTJ and an unhealthy one.
    I do things because "it's what's done" because it's necessary to accomplish a certain goal.


  5. #15
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    I do things because "it's what's done" because it's necessary to accomplish a certain goal.
    Are doing so because it shapes the opinions of others in such a mannor that they become favourable to you, thus making your goals easier? Or just because of an emotional impulse that such a thing has to be correct. I ask because the psychological implications of the two are very different!

  6. #16
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Are doing so because it shapes the opinions of others in such a mannor that they become favourable to you, thus making your goals easier? Or just because of an emotional impulse that such a thing has to be correct. I ask because the psychological implications of the two are very different!
    It's situational. Sometimes I change something just because I feel uneasy seeing something not unorganized. Sometimes I change something because I just can't think straight seeing something unorganized. Sometimes I tell someone to do something because I/We might get punished for not doing it correctly. Sometimes I do something a certain way just because I don't know any better!


  7. #17
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    It's situational. Sometimes I change something just because I feel uneasy seeing something not unorganized. Sometimes I change something because I just can't think straight seeing something unorganized. Sometimes I tell someone to do something because I/We might get punished for not doing it correctly. Sometimes I do something a certain way just because I don't know any better!

    Do you ever do something because you feel it's a better way to do it? Not sure if you are using 'unorganized in that manner', because something can be organized but still be inefficient, or just not make any sense.


    If you don't know any better, then it's best to do it the way you were taught. So I agree there.

    I know that for most things I do, I'll start doing it the way that I was instructed, but I'm always on the lookout for ways to do it better, either by thinking of ways myself or being receptive to feedback of others. Sometimes if it's something that I enjoy doing, or it's so mindless and easy that it's immaterial, I won't think to do it differently.

    For SJs, since the 'possibilities' function is either 3rd or 4th place, there's a good chance that it does not come to use fairly often, especially in younger people. I developed mines due to my work- we were encouraged to always look to do things differently than the previous instance. Creativity and efficiency were always praised. So it pains me where I am now, where if you introduce the possibility of doing something different, people curl in the fetal position because it's almost like tearing a piece of their soul.

  8. #18
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    A relevant interaction from the Ask an ESTJ thread:

    It started with Athenian asking how ESTJs deal with those different from them. And then:
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    If their different-ness makes them difficult to deal with (e.g. if they have bad social skills, or they won't stop talking no matter what), then I might not want to be around them. I might be indifferent to them, or respond them with one word answers, or something along those lines. But if they're different in a way that I find to be harmless (e.g. wearing an outrageous costume to a social gathering when costumes weren't expected), then I may even find that different-ness to be charming, and it might draw me to them. You might get an immediate reaction like "Whoa... that's weird", but I get over that fast once it's proven to me that you're actually cool, despite/because of your weirdness.
    But that answer really only applies in social situations.
    In work situations, if the person's different-ness interferes with their ability to work and to get things done efficiently (or if I find it offensive), then I'm not okay with it. Otherwise, you know, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, and so on and so on.
    So I guess, if my answers apply to other ESTJs, we can be quite intolerant at first, but we're fairly easily convinced that different people are cool. (It's my personal belief that NFs can be WAY more closed-minded than ESTJs are, because their beliefs are so much more... personal, for lack of a better word.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Wow. It sounds like you're fairly open minded. I wasn't really thinking about being different in terms of having bad social skills or being rude, though. I kind of take those things for granted. My idea of "different" would be something more like... a guy wearing a purple shirt or having long hair, or a girl wearing pants instead of a dress. Or, I suppose, unusual clothing or hair styles in general? I'd never even imagined the possibility of someone wearing a costume when they weren't supposed to (at least not on purpose). Stuff like that really happens? Interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Oh, okay. This depends on the ESTJ, I think. Honestly, it depends on what the ESTJ considers to be "traditional". The idea of what's "traditional" is very subjective. I grew up in a liberal part of the country, with open-minded parents, and I went to schools with open outlooks. I've been to drag shows before, I have friends who dress up in leopard-print onesies because that's their style (she's the one who inspired the costume comment), and I went to a Nine Inch Nails concert... although I brought earplugs But then again, most of my friends do things like this too, so for me, anyways, it IS "traditional". The examples you gave of things that are "different" are things that I find to be completely normal. It's generational, I think... a middle-aged ESTJ might be much more closed-minded, because today's culture isn't the one they were raised with, and a (American) white male ESTJ might be more closed-minded, because, in all honesty, white males have traditionally been on the opposite side of change for much of history, while women and minorities haven't been. (But that's a HUGE generalization, so pardon me... you see my point, I hope.)
    Edit: Since I'm young, I think of myself as picking and choosing traditions at the moment. I think that by the time I've "settled down", so to speak, I'll be more closed-minded. I'm already pretty closed-minded about certain things, including new technology (f*cking Kindle needs to DIE FOREVER).

    But at the moment, I'm pretty non-traditional.
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  9. #19
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I don't think that any of the SJs I know would do something "just because that's the way it's done" without having to know WHY first In fact, I don't think I've met many people who ask more questions than my ISFJ mom (and no, they're not all "are you making sure to take your birth control?" she asks questions about EVERYTHING) and I got kept awake the other night looking up if fish sleep and how for my ISTJ

    so no, not incurious by any means and not willing to do something just because it's always done that way
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #20
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    I second the above. I really need to know WHY. I've been told more than once that it's hard to tell me what to do. Especially if the status quo looks irrational to me or it's being preached by someone who I think is irrational. It's hard for me to go against logic.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

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