[MBTI General] ISTJs Explained By ISTJs: Post your questions here!

[Donna Cecilia]

Here's a question for you all. What do you think are some of the practical differences between Si and Ni? I've always had the idea that they are more similar to each other than either is to Se or Ne. I'd like to know what you all think about that, or if it's just me who sees the similarity.

Si relies on what is known (present facts, or information stored in memory from personal experience), to draw conclusions by contrasting past and present, easily spotting contradictions; while Ni relies on insight (possibilities, meanings, personal impressions), to change a future scenario starting from something completely new, since it can notice abstract patterns.

By the way, did somebody take you for an ISTJ (as I was taken for an INTJ before)? Just wondering.

The functions can be perceived as similar since they, at least for me, compliment each other. I use intuitive reasoning to overcome my Si´s major problem: missing, if nonexistent, information. I always start from what I know and what I see (the facts), and then start putting them in perspective (juggling with different possibilities and unseen patterns) to figure out how a situation will develop, or in which context it is situated, in order to get a solution, or a plan, which can be helpful also in the long-term.

There must also be intuitives who can follow this same process the other way round.

 

[IZthe411]

Here's a question for you all. What do you think are some of the practical differences between Si and Ni? I've always had the idea that they are more similar to each other than either is to Se or Ne. I'd like to know what you all think about that, or if it's just me who sees the similarity.

Interesting question...

To be honest with you, Ni's probably the most foreign of the 8 to me....probably because it's the most inferior function for my type. But I'd think that there'd have to be some similarities, as they are both introverted perception functions. For me, it's easier to identify the key difference, that being Si is basing it off past concrete information while Ni's piecing it together in a more abstract fashion.

I think ISTJs and INTJs are more alike than they are different, as they are both Pi/Te/Fi/Pe.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Si relies on what is known (present facts, or information stored in memory from personal experience), to draw conclusions by contrasting past and present, easily spotting contradictions; while Ni relies on insight (possibilities, meanings, personal impressions), to change a future scenario starting from something completely new, since it can notice abstract patterns.

By the way, did somebody take you for an ISTJ (as I was taken for an INTJ before)? Just wondering.

The functions can be perceived as similar since they, at least for me, compliment each other. I use intuitive reasoning to overcome my Si´s major problem: missing, if nonexistent, information. I always start from what I know and what I see (the facts), and then start putting them in perspective (juggling with different possibilities and unseen patterns) to figure out how a situation will develop, or in which context it is situated, in order to get a solution, or a plan, which can be helpful also in the long-term.

There must also be intuitives who can follow this same process the other way round.

Oh yes. Others thought I was an ISTJ, and I thought so myself too. I'm generally somebody who follows procedure in a given situation, and am very literal and linear. The thing is, I think these are really qualities that apply to the left-brain as a whole, and not just Si. All J-types are left-brained, and all P-types are right-brained. The way I know I'm an INTJ and not an ISTJ, is how I gather information. Having known some ISTJs, and my father being one, I have made some observations of your general behavior. ISTJs, using Ne as their main data-gathering function, draw connections between things in their immediate surrounding that I do not. Se basically sees the world as it is, and doesn't do any sort of processing. Si/Ne users gather and process, then store, while Ni/Se users gather, then store and process. Ni seems to be like Si in that it is a collection of known information. The difference is that Ni is able to shift facts and data around to change between "what is" and "what could be." Ne and Se seem to me to be the "true" perceiving functions. Ni and Si are more like memory banks, just with one being a little more complex than the other. So basically, I already had this idea, and I was asking for the opinion of SJs to get a different perspective and see if maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.

 

[freeeekyyy]

I think ISTJs and INTJs are more alike than they are different, as they are both Pi/Te/Fi/Pe.

I agree. I generally understand ISTJs much better than I understand INTPs, for instance. I think it's the Ti/Te divide that makes them tough to understand.

 

[raz]

Oh yes. Others thought I was an ISTJ, and I thought so myself too. I'm generally somebody who follows procedure in a given situation, and am very literal and linear. The thing is, I think these are really qualities that apply to the left-brain as a whole, and not just Si. All J-types are left-brained, and all P-types are right-brained. The way I know I'm an INTJ and not an ISTJ, is how I gather information. Having known some ISTJs, and my father being one, I have made some observations of your general behavior. ISTJs, using Ne as their main data-gathering function, draw connections between things in their immediate surrounding that I do not. Se basically sees the world as it is, and doesn't do any sort of processing. Si/Ne users gather and process, then store, while Ni/Se users gather, then store and process. Ni seems to be like Si in that it is a collection of known information. The difference is that Ni is able to shift facts and data around to change between "what is" and "what could be." Ne and Se seem to me to be the "true" perceiving functions. Ni and Si are more like memory banks, just with one being a little more complex than the other. So basically, I already had this idea, and I was asking for the opinion of SJs to get a different perspective and see if maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.

I don't think of Si as a memory bank. That's your own memory. All of the functions are processes. They aren't databases or systems. The difference between Si and Ni is how you process information internally. Si relates past information to the present. Ni takes information and creates new concepts.

My father is an INTJ. I'm ISTJ. We relate well due to having 3 letters in common. We're also fascinated with computers, and me exposing myself to technical ideas within the computer world has vastly changed my viewpoint on Ni and Ne. My father is focused on creating abstractions and working with the systems of reality. His Ni in conjuction with working with systems from Te makes him not concerned with respecting what was or is like Si does. If a system is flawed, he has no issue changing it, because effectiveness is of utmost priority.

Si is a function that places emphasis on reality, respecting long-held organized thought and comparing what has occurred in the past with what is occurring in the present. That's why Si is a stabilizing function. It compares the past with the present. This type of process is informative but useless without extraverted judgment to carry out adjustments from comparisons. The difference in me vs my father is that I'm the one that will measure the practicality of the external situation, how it fits with reality.

 

[IZthe411]

Question- how critical are you guys of other people- especially of their faults?

Does that critical attitude ever come back to haunt you when you've failed- even on the smallest things?

 

[Donna Cecilia]

Question- how critical are you guys of other people- especially of their faults?

I´m a strong critic of people, especially of their morals. I tend to focus my criticism on my loved ones, but in a constructive manner (I have learnt this over the years, though). Like saying "I criticize you, I love you".

Does that critical attitude ever come back to haunt you when you've failed- even on the smallest things?

Yes, but not by other people. I am my own critic. And the hardest one, to be honest.

 

[Patches]

Question- how critical are you guys of other people- especially of their faults?

I´m a strong critic of people, especially of their morals. I tend to focus my criticism on my loved ones, but in a constructive manner (I have learnt this over the years, though). Like saying "I criticize you, I love you".

Does that critical attitude ever come back to haunt you when you've failed- even on the smallest things?

Yes, but not by other people. I am my own critic. And the hardest one, to be honest.

Seconded on these answers. Though I'd say because of the way I was raised I am less critical of morals and more critical of academic/career achievements. If someone has academic-related faults I tend to be VERY critical. And I haven't really mastered the art of being super constructive about it. I'm just blunt about how they're failing. This is an area I should improve. And like Donna, I am more critical of people I am closer to.

Also like Donna, I am more critical of myself than anyone else.

 

[Amethyst]

Question - Is it not unusual for an unhealthy ISTJ to be overly sensitive, as to the point where you mistake them for an unhealthy INFP? My father tested as one, and I just don't see it. I see it in my brother, and they're alike in a lot of ways, but dad seems way more immature. He gets sensitive about nothing, doesn't get anything done, is hypocritical, assumes people have been doing stuff against him and that everyone's out to get him, etc.

He's had a troubled life, and I'm quite aware that he is mentally unstable to the point of no return, and that it's very difficult and not recommended to type unstable people...but I'm just curious.

 

[Frank]

Good question. Thanks

ISTJs follow norms, not based on society or traditions, but what they themselves have accepted as 'normal'. I think we have this reputation due to the earliest observations of type showing ISTJs most tied to what was normal and acceptable at that time. But that's not the case.

ISTJs don't just blindly follow any and everything. Most of the time, they are the last to join the crowd- if they join at all. Before accepting anything, they have to be won over, in a sense. You win them over by a combination of experience and facts, not just one or the other. Since that's the case, you cannot typify or expect us to all be alike- facts are constant, and in most cases, unchanging, but experiences of ISTJs differ like everyone else. So it's very easy to have a group of ISTJs and all of them differ in their 'norms'.

What would make an ISTJ follow a "vision", or rather a plan that cannot be immediately backed up by experience?

 

[raz]

What would make an ISTJ follow a "vision", or rather a plan that cannot be immediately backed up by experience?

Back it up with figures and plans. Show me what you hope to accomplish. Show me the math behind it. Visions can be followed, but for me to take them seriously, it needs to be understood on a practical level. What is the practical reason this vision exists? Are you dedicated to it? If experience isn't an option, then preliminary estimates are. You can't always dismiss something because it's not completely concrete. This is where I invoke Ne and rely on what-if scenarios in order to back my "show me the math behind it" demand.

 

[Frank]

Back it up with figures and plans. Show me what you hope to accomplish. Show me the math behind it. Visions can be followed, but for me to take them seriously, it needs to be understood on a practical level. What is the practical reason this vision exists? Are you dedicated to it? If experience isn't an option, then preliminary estimates are. You can't always dismiss something because it's not completely concrete. This is where I invoke Ne and rely on what-if scenarios in order to back my "show me the math behind it" demand.

What if we needed your abilities on board but it wasn't really important for you to understand the plan? Would a steady, healthy paycheck be enough to get your best efforts?

 

[IZthe411]

Question - Is it not unusual for an unhealthy ISTJ to be overly sensitive, as to the point where you mistake them for an unhealthy INFP? My father tested as one, and I just don't see it. I see it in my brother, and they're alike in a lot of ways, but dad seems way more immature. He gets sensitive about nothing, doesn't get anything done, is hypocritical, assumes people have been doing stuff against him and that everyone's out to get him, etc.

He's had a troubled life, and I'm quite aware that he is mentally unstable to the point of no return, and that it's very difficult and not recommended to type unstable people...but I'm just curious.

Yeah he could be caught in a Si-Fi loop, overreacting to anything that happens to him. Sounds like the guy needs help.

 

[IZthe411]

What would make an ISTJ follow a "vision", or rather a plan that cannot be immediately backed up by experience?

You gotta sell them on the idea. Show them the benefits. If they believe in you, if you have proven yourself to be someone that they can trust, they'll be more comfortable helping you achieve that vision.

 

[IZthe411]

What if we needed your abilities on board but it wasn't really important for you to understand the plan? Would a steady, healthy paycheck be enough to get your best efforts?

Ummm.....

Maybe

The way you just stated it- "it wasn't really important for me to understand" would bother me personally, especially if you worded it that way. Even if you didn't eventually I'd ask you what's up. I want to be involved, know what the big picture is, the ultimate outcome, so I can see where my work fits in. I, for one, am not comfortable being told to do something and have no idea of how it fits in the grand scheme. Although I am an ISTJ I still have the ability to make decisions and draw conclusions should I need to on the fly. I hate having to wait to talk to somebody about what to do next if it's as simple as filling me in on what they know.

 

[Donna Cecilia]

As for me, when I have no past experience to back up a plan, I rely on my insight and figure it out myself. To know how can I help you.

If I like what I see, how it fits in the actual situation, and what will happen if the plan is executed, I´ll help you.

Also, a big paycheck is not a bad idea.

 

[raz]

Do I get the big paycheck whether or not the plan fails?

 

[IZthe411]

How do you handle Authority? Do you have that "Since he's the boss, I'll do" mentality, or is it qualified?

I have a younger ESTJ workmate who is very conscious of authority. Me- I have to respect the person for me to want to do things for them that I don't agree with or I think are unnecessary.

 

[Donna Cecilia]

How do you handle Authority? Do you have that "Since he's the boss, I'll do" mentality, or is it qualified?

I have a younger ESTJ workmate who is very conscious of authority. Me- I have to respect the person for me to want to do things for them that I don't agree with or I think are unnecessary.

If he´s not qualified, he´ll be demoted sooner or later. And I can use that chance to take charge.

At first, I try to be my boss´ own boss, and prevent my institution or division from making a fool of itself. But, when it was not a "kill or be killed" situation, I didn´t interfere and, some higher-ups looked like complete idiots by proving their own incompetence. And was put in charge of some interesting things.

 

[Amethyst]

Yeah he could be caught in a Si-Fi loop, overreacting to anything that happens to him. Sounds like the guy needs help.

Yeah, we've tried...he's too stubborn.