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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Also, as an SP myself (not sure how it works for you) I bond really easily with people in general by just DOING something with them. Anything really. Taking a drive, going someplace etc. And SJs seem to enjoy doing things;
    Interesting you should say that. My ISFJ was in tears a few days ago, saying, "I can sense that you don't enjoy us spending time together..." I didn't think it showed. :rolli: So I had to offer reassurance that, "yes, I do enjoy spending time together, but you know I don't enjoy chit-chat." We've both joked about that being a weakness of my temperament. And I suggested that we do something together instead of sitting looking at each other over our drinks making small talk. I would enjoy completing a mundane household chore together.

    But this is for ISTJ questions, and I've veered off into ISFJ talk.

  2. #502
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    It may have been meant as satire, but it hits a little too close to home. The ISTJ I know actually does talk a lot about those two things - basketball (and other sports) and quarantining groups of people who think differently. Maybe not literally shooting up trailer parks, but every discussion seems to end with some group of people not measuring up and therefore being of no value and no use, and who therefore should be rounded up and shipped off or whatever. From what I can tell, that is, indeed, a weakness of the ISTJ personality.

    So, how do I get beyond that? How do I talk with such a person and bring them closer to understanding that all types are necessary and have their own strengths that are of value to the whole scheme of things, and keep it from drifting into a declaration that certain kinds of people who don't measure up to the ISTJ's standard shouldn't have a right to exist? There's a narrowness of thinking there tied up with value judgments that I need to get past -- but how? And how, when my own inclination as an INTJ is to take the other side and start debating the issue myself? I find myself taking a side in a debate completely opposite my own opinion out of frustration.
    Well, technically, the world is a game of power. Darwin. Survival of the Fittest. Those who make the strongest moves survive. Our weaknesses as human beings tends us to explore the necessity of Extraverted Feeling, to ask and provide assistance. Although, one could venture to guess that in a world without Extraverted Feeling, the most intelligent are the ones to rise above the rest. This can cause an area of the population to become obsolete.


  3. #503
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    It may have been meant as satire, but it hits a little too close to home. The ISTJ I know actually does talk a lot about those two things - basketball (and other sports) and quarantining groups of people who think differently. Maybe not literally shooting up trailer parks, but every discussion seems to end with some group of people not measuring up and therefore being of no value and no use, and who therefore should be rounded up and shipped off or whatever. From what I can tell, that is, indeed, a weakness of the ISTJ personality.

    So, how do I get beyond that? How do I talk with such a person and bring them closer to understanding that all types are necessary and have their own strengths that are of value to the whole scheme of things, and keep it from drifting into a declaration that certain kinds of people who don't measure up to the ISTJ's standard shouldn't have a right to exist? There's a narrowness of thinking there tied up with value judgments that I need to get past -- but how? And how, when my own inclination as an INTJ is to take the other side and start debating the issue myself? I find myself taking a side in a debate completely opposite my own opinion out of frustration.
    Kind of sounds like my friend. He's more the backwoods, kill a deer with his bare hands, kind of guy. I don't take him from the front, but from the side. There are a number of things I agree with him on, but slightly more moderate and I hold myself there rather than doing any diametric opposition. My stability and often sensability helps out and over the years has softened the edges. That said, we've been friends for 15 years.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  4. #504
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    It may have been meant as satire, but it hits a little too close to home. The ISTJ I know actually does talk a lot about those two things - basketball (and other sports) and quarantining groups of people who think differently. Maybe not literally shooting up trailer parks, but every discussion seems to end with some group of people not measuring up and therefore being of no value and no use, and who therefore should be rounded up and shipped off or whatever. From what I can tell, that is, indeed, a weakness of the ISTJ personality.

    So, how do I get beyond that? How do I talk with such a person and bring them closer to understanding that all types are necessary and have their own strengths that are of value to the whole scheme of things, and keep it from drifting into a declaration that certain kinds of people who don't measure up to the ISTJ's standard shouldn't have a right to exist? There's a narrowness of thinking there tied up with value judgments that I need to get past -- but how? And how, when my own inclination as an INTJ is to take the other side and start debating the issue myself? I find myself taking a side in a debate completely opposite my own opinion out of frustration.
    So you're trying to bring an ISTJ out of a closed-minded perspective. From the way you've presented your "counterarguments" in discussions with him, have his attitudes or opinions ever changed over time? Sounds like a good, basic approach to me.

    The way I would offer a counteropinion in discussions is to lay them out there, but not drive them home, or even to their logical conclusion. Let him put two and two together, and he won't feel coerced--nobody's going to appreciate that, and as an ISTJ, I'd resent someone trying to coerce me out of my mindset, even if closed-minded. But those suggestions, presented as "I wonder, though, if..." and just left at his feet, so to speak, can build up over time, and he may wonder about your points afterwards. Seems most likely to have success here.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  5. #505
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Exactly. I'm not likely to change an opinion in the face of an argument, but I will dwell on and analyze it in my own time later on, then see if my opinion needs to change.


  6. #506
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    The way I would offer a counteropinion in discussions is to lay them out there, but not drive them home, or even to their logical conclusion. Let him put two and two together, and he won't feel coerced--nobody's going to appreciate that, and as an ISTJ, I'd resent someone trying to coerce me out of my mindset, even if closed-minded. But those suggestions, presented as "I wonder, though, if..." and just left at his feet, so to speak, can build up over time, and he may wonder about your points afterwards. Seems most likely to have success here.
    The text in bold.

    You can make me understand your point of view, but not convince me that it is the best. You take the best out of me when you show me what you think as it is, objectively. Just tell me what you think, and why. Don´t try to make me take your side.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
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  7. #507
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    The text in bold.

    You can make me understand your point of view, but not convince me that it is the best. You take the best out of me when you show me what you think as it is, objectively. Just tell me what you think, and why. Don´t try to make me take your side.
    Give me an example of someone coercing you please, to see if I understand what you guys are talking about.

  8. #508
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Give me an example of someone coercing you please, to see if I understand what you guys are talking about.
    I have lots of examples in mind, from politics to work procedures. Coercing means trying to change my thoughts.

    I´m not the most suitable here to tell you that, though. Every person that tries to coerce me fails miserably. I always end up telling them something like: "It´s all right, I understand what you are saying. But I think differently. Can YOU understand that too?"

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
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  9. #509
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    I have lots of examples in mind, from politics to work procedures. Coercing means trying to change my thoughts.

    I´m not the most suitable here to tell you that, though. Every person that tries to coerce me fails miserably. I always end up telling them something like: "It´s all right, I understand what you are saying. But I think differently. Can YOU understand that too?"
    What's so bad about trying to change your thoughts if it's not done underhandedly? I'm open to anyone changing my thoughts. It's how I test the strengths of my own ideas.

  10. #510
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    What's so bad about trying to change your thoughts if it's not done underhandedly? I'm open to anyone changing my thoughts. It's how I test the strengths of my own ideas.
    There is a difference between changing your thoughts and understanding what others thing. Of course that arguing (in reasonable amounts) helps to test the strength of your ideas. But, understanding different points of views helps to broaden your own horizons.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
    Victor Hugo



    LII/INTj (Analyst) - 1w9 Sp/Sx - RC|O|EI - Melancholy/Choleric

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