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  1. #491
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vika View Post
    Its it an ISTJ thing to not be able to/not want to say "sorry" or admit you were "wrong"?

    ...and if you do apologize, does it mean you're really worried you f-ed up?
    Saying sorry is probably less of an exclusive ISTJ thing, and more of a T thing. It's probably more TJ than TP.

    Personally, it's hard for me to be vulnerable- showing I care. So when it's time to say things like "I'm sorry", it's hard to do. Not that I am careless about the other's person's feelings. Once I realize that I hurt someone's feelings, I'll feel bad. But to actually utter those words takes something out of me.

  2. #492
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    I apologize when I sincerely feel I made a mistake that hurt someone else. I'm much better now at admitting I'm wrong than I was 10 years ago, but it's still like 75% chance of being able to do it. It's really just that it makes me feel incompetent to be wrong. But, then I like admitting I'm wrong just to know I'm better than a lot of guys that can't say they're wrong.


  3. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    We're just all part of a larger system, in a way. The SJs just maintain the order.
    I believe this. And the fact there are so many more SJ's than the other types makes me think that must take a lot of them to maintain the order that the rest of us keep trying to mess up.

    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    We couldn't live without the NTs because the SJs just don't have the capacity to think in the manner of an NT.
    Don't have the capacity? Please, say it ain't so! That was going to be my question. I spend a lot of time with a couple of SJ's (I'm married to one and I spend a lot of time with the other one because our kids play together) and I need to be able to talk to them. With one, every topic becomes a competition/debate that must be won, with the other, most topics are steered away from for comfort's sake. And I feel like if I have to continue avoiding any weighted topics and talk about whether beans are two cents more in one store, or the weather, I'll die. Or kill.

    I need to be able to find common ground and interest with both of the SJ's in my life, but I'm at a loss. There are important reasons why friendly relations have to continue, so I need some ideas.

  4. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I think SFJs are nicer in a sense...they laugh a lot. It seems like for them Fe is this desire to not offend anybody. They are very mannerly, and sometimes too nice.....almost to the point that they could be considered a doormat to some, and actually allow it to happen.
    One of the SJ's in my question is ISFJ, and the need to not offend is very strong. But, to me, it means that our conversations have to stay in pretty dull territory, and I can only take so much of that.

  5. #495
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    Don't have the capacity? Please, say it ain't so! That was going to be my question. I spend a lot of time with a couple of SJ's (I'm married to one and I spend a lot of time with the other one because our kids play together) and I need to be able to talk to them. With one, every topic becomes a competition/debate that must be won, with the other, most topics are steered away from for comfort's sake. And I feel like if I have to continue avoiding any weighted topics and talk about whether beans are two cents more in one store, or the weather, I'll die. Or kill.

    I need to be able to find common ground and interest with both of the SJ's in my life, but I'm at a loss. There are important reasons why friendly relations have to continue, so I need some ideas.
    Surely we are not capable of thinking like an NT. MBTI is about the differences in mental processes.

    But, to save you from trauma, we can understand how an NT thinks. That´s how I get to common ground with all the NTs I know. Starting with my INTJ Father, to mention the closest NT I have.

    Also, the friends who I share the most interests with, are NTs.

    The only idea I can give you, is to try to understand SJ people, not thinking like us. If you achieve the second one, you will become an SJ yourself. Not a good idea, since relationships, along with mutual understanding, need mutual acceptance in order to continue.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
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  6. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    So I think the reason why people say ISTJs are boring, emotionally distant, cold, robots, etc. is because they are identifying the ISTJ too much with the outer functioning.
    Perhaps. But, then again, I see this, about ISTJ/INTJ, posted by an ISTJ that seems to confirm the ISTJ stereotype:

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Based on my understanding of MBTI, Ni doms would have a lot more going on in their head besides basketball and shooting up trailer parks.
    For me, wanting to find common ground with an ISTJ, this is not what I want to hear.

  7. #497
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    For me, wanting to find common ground with an ISTJ, this is not what I want to hear.
    First of all, don´t take it personally.

    That post was a satire. We don´t go out shooting up trailer parks.

    We have lots of things in our head, the difference is that we don´t mix them all up and make weird associations between them. We can think of every single thing as it is.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
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    LII/INTj (Analyst) - 1w9 Sp/Sx - RC|O|EI - Melancholy/Choleric

  8. #498
    Magical BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconut View Post
    One of the SJ's in my question is ISFJ, and the need to not offend is very strong. But, to me, it means that our conversations have to stay in pretty dull territory, and I can only take so much of that.
    Maybe you could ease in more intense discussion? ISFJs are really good about knowing who really likes them and for what reasons, so if you offend them I'm sure that she would know that you meant no harm (that's how they go if they love you). If this is one of your relationship needs, then she should compromise.

    I'm not an SJ at all, but I've known a few ISJs and am hoping maybe I can help you out.

    All of the relationships with SJs that I've had have varied depending on their age, interests, and gender. In my experience I get along the best with ISTJ females, followed very closely by ESTJ females out of the SJs. ISTJ females are awesome when we can connect!

    But one thing has been certain with the SJs I've known, we just simply can't connect if we have dissimilar lifestyles or have no hobbies in common. With my SJ friends I've made we just generally talk about what's going on in our lives and how they are doing with work, school, and their personal stuff. It's just all about what's going on in our lives really. When I have work or school relationships with them in some way I find that we get closer easier. Also, as an SP myself (not sure how it works for you) I bond really easily with people in general by just DOING something with them. Anything really. Taking a drive, going someplace etc. And SJs seem to enjoy doing things; and they enjoy having favors done for them and enjoy giving and caretaking in return.

    I have had intense discussions with my SJ friends. They seem to respond well, but it can get a bit dull as you said. But then again most conversations I have with anyone are dull unless I connect to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    We have lots of things in our head, the difference is that we don´t mix them all up and make weird associations between them. We can think of every single thing as it is.
    ^This is how it works with every IS__ type.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  9. #499
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Coconut... weather can be quite the interesting topic if talked about the right way. Then again, I don't stop at "it's raining" or "it's cold"; I go into the cloud formations, upper tropospheric ice density, pressure systems and the movement of air masses. Some people aren't interested in that though - unless a storm that I said would show up does at the time I said it would.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  10. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    That post was a satire. We don´t go out shooting up trailer parks.
    It may have been meant as satire, but it hits a little too close to home. The ISTJ I know actually does talk a lot about those two things - basketball (and other sports) and quarantining groups of people who think differently. Maybe not literally shooting up trailer parks, but every discussion seems to end with some group of people not measuring up and therefore being of no value and no use, and who therefore should be rounded up and shipped off or whatever. From what I can tell, that is, indeed, a weakness of the ISTJ personality.

    So, how do I get beyond that? How do I talk with such a person and bring them closer to understanding that all types are necessary and have their own strengths that are of value to the whole scheme of things, and keep it from drifting into a declaration that certain kinds of people who don't measure up to the ISTJ's standard shouldn't have a right to exist? There's a narrowness of thinking there tied up with value judgments that I need to get past -- but how? And how, when my own inclination as an INTJ is to take the other side and start debating the issue myself? I find myself taking a side in a debate completely opposite my own opinion out of frustration.

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