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  1. #401
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I have a question.

    I understand that your main cognitive function Si. Does that imply that you seek to fit in? But as an Introvert, does it work? It's as if you're goal is the same cause of disadvantage.

    Good question.

    Answer: Not necessarily. Si is 'traditional' in the sense that it focuses on past experiences, and that differs from person to person.

    Let's take a hypothetical- let's take it back to high school as a background. If an ISTJ was to look at his classmates he'd likely assess them by what they are involved in and who they hang with. So he might see the jocks and conclude that all they are interested in is sports and goofing off (based on his storehouse of information about athletes). ISTJ hates sports and is a serious student. So he'll avoid any unnecessary interaction with them, at the expense of his fitting in, as his Si may also assign their activities as what's necessary to fit in. He could want to fit in (normal for a lot of teens), but if that's what it takes to fit in, then he'll gladly stay out of place.

    Being introverted isn't a hindrance to fitting in, btw. Using the above, there could be an ISTJ among the athletes, and although he may not be as gregarious as his more extraverted teammates, he fits in because his experiences are in line with this group. The athlete ISTJ may not consider themselves fitting in, though; he'll feel this is his group of friends and nothing more.

  2. #402
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    My type lately is MNIC

    What's MNIC Raz?

  3. #403
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    So "fitting in" isn't actually an Si thing?

  4. #404
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    So "fitting in" isn't actually an Si thing?
    If anything, a desire to fit in is a more introverted judgement. ISTJs have tert Fi, so they could want it, but they'd likely do without. I think the Si/Ne loop would prevent them from actually putting forth the effort to fit in. The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it.

  5. #405
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    So "fitting in" isn't actually an Si thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    If anything, a desire to fit in is a more introverted judgement. ISTJs have tert Fi, so they could want it, but they'd likely do without. I think the Si/Ne loop would prevent them from actually putting forth the effort to fit in. The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it.
    "Fitting in" per se is more of an Fe thing, not an Si thing. So xSFJ would want to "fit in." The Si does direct, to some degree, what one perceives as "acceptable" for fitting in.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #406
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    "Fitting in" per se is more of an Fe thing, not an Si thing. So xSFJ would want to "fit in." The Si does direct, to some degree, what one perceives as "acceptable" for fitting in.
    Upon further thought, yeah I can see Fe at play, but why not Fi?

  7. #407
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Upon further thought, yeah I can see Fe at play, but why not Fi?
    Fi is rather contrarian, especially with respect to feelings. Both inverted judging functions are rather contrarian, for different reasons.

    Fe and Te, on the other hand, are conformist. So xSTJ and xSFJ both conform, but they conform to different standards. xSTJ is concerned about what works, and sticking to a plan that works. ISO requirements are very "STJ", for example. xSFJ is more about fitting in with society/people as a whole. Whenever I hear someone assert that I should agree with them because they're an ally, even when wrong, I think "xSFJ." (I might be typing them wrong, but it's usually a very good first guess.)

    So the SiTeFi person will tend to want to conform for pragmatic reasons, not Fi emotional ones, while the SiFeTi person will want to conform for social reasons. I took "fit in" to imply the social context, hence Fe.

    Notice how you said, "The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it." I.e., "worth it" meaning for practical/pragmatic reasons. Very ISTJ, very Fi. Fi is the most likely source of your feeling here, and it's expressing an antisocial sentiment, quite contrary to fitting in.

    To clarify the nature of Te conformity vs Fe conformity, let me give an example of each. Te-conformity would be "everyone must drive on the right side of the road." The purpose of such conformity is no particular preference for the right side of the road, because either side would do. The purpose is that everyone must drive on the same side of the road in order for traffic to flow well. Te-conformity does not mind, in principle, that to drive in England, as opposed to the US, one must drive on the left side, even if one is inconvenienced and it feels funny. The point isn't to "fit in", but to "not get into an accident." Fe conformity would be more along the lines of "wear red white and blue on July 4th" in the US. Wearing patriotic colors generates feelings of friendship, comradery, togetherness. The colors serve no practical purpose whatsoever, but purely a social purpose.

    (Bear in mind that these are merely simple examples of behavior, and not a means to determine one's type. xSTJs can feel very bit as patriotic as xSFJs: it is why and how those feelings are felt and expressed that differs.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #408
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fi is rather contrarian, especially with respect to feelings. Both inverted judging functions are rather contrarian, for different reasons.

    Fe and Te, on the other hand, are conformist. So xSTJ and xSFJ both conform, but they conform to different standards. xSTJ is concerned about what works, and sticking to a plan that works. ISO requirements are very "STJ", for example. xSFJ is more about fitting in with society/people as a whole. Whenever I hear someone assert that I should agree with them because they're an ally, even when wrong, I think "xSFJ." (I might be typing them wrong, but it's usually a very good first guess.)

    So the SiTeFi person will tend to want to conform for pragmatic reasons, not Fi emotional ones, while the SiFeTi person will want to conform for social reasons. I took "fit in" to imply the social context, hence Fe.

    Notice how you said, "The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it." I.e., "worth it" meaning for practical/pragmatic reasons. Very ISTJ, very Fi. Fi is the most likely source of your feeling here, and it's expressing an antisocial sentiment, quite contrary to fitting in.

    To clarify the nature of Te conformity vs Fe conformity, let me give an example of each. Te-conformity would be "everyone must drive on the right side of the road." The purpose of such conformity is no particular preference for the right side of the road, because either side would do. The purpose is that everyone must drive on the same side of the road in order for traffic to flow well. Te-conformity does not mind, in principle, that to drive in England, as opposed to the US, one must drive on the left side, even if one is inconvenienced and it feels funny. The point isn't to "fit in", but to "not get into an accident." Fe conformity would be more along the lines of "wear red white and blue on July 4th" in the US. Wearing patriotic colors generates feelings of friendship, comradery, togetherness. The colors serve no practical purpose whatsoever, but purely a social purpose.

    (Bear in mind that these are merely simple examples of behavior, and not a means to determine one's type. xSTJs can feel very bit as patriotic as xSFJs: it is why and how those feelings are felt and expressed that differs.)

    Nice explanation man. It makes sense.

    Like you, I took fitting in what you have described in the social context/Fe behavior.

    So question for you- how does you Ni work along with your Te in terms of the NiTeFi conformity?

  9. #409
    Member Sam Spade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I have a question.

    I understand that your main cognitive function Si. Does that imply that you seek to fit in? But as an Introvert, does it work? It's as if you're goal is the same cause of disadvantage.
    I used to try to fit in, but gave up on it awhile ago. I'd rather have my close friends than vainly try to fit in with larger groups of people.

    Notice how you said, "The thought of having to do and act like a group for the sake of normalcy would cause me to run the other way, especially if I don't think it's worth it." I.e., "worth it" meaning for practical/pragmatic reasons. Very ISTJ, very Fi. Fi is the most likely source of your feeling here, and it's expressing an antisocial sentiment, quite contrary to fitting in.
    This is very true, at least in my case.
    "Knights had no meaning in this game. It wasn't a game for knights."

  10. #410
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Nice explanation man. It makes sense.

    Like you, I took fitting in what you have described in the social context/Fe behavior.

    So question for you- how does you Ni work along with your Te in terms of the NiTeFi conformity?
    I've found that the best way to explain it is that Ni lets me "swap out rulesets" wholesale. The Si approach is more focused, from what I've read: the ruleset has to be seriously grounded in reality, and that implies limited number of possible rulesets. E.g., using the "which side of the street do you drive on" example, Si has no problem with the "everyone to the left" or the "everyone to the right". Both are reasonable and based in reality. Ni would also consider having no "everyone to either side of the street" rule, while Si would insist that it all had to be one side or the other. E.g., Ni could consider a "just turn your blinkers on to indicate which way you'll go to avoid collision" rule. Si would see all sorts of difficulties with that.

    NiTe conformity would be more about admitting ANY possible idea for discussion. (We actually don't mind the "random idea" input from Ne users: far from it, in fact!) As long as the idea has merit, it gets discussed along with all the other options. Si would be more restrictive, relying on "tried and true" ideas, worried that a new idea hasn't been tested enough, and just more comfortable knowing that an idea has worked perfectly well in the past.

    Effectively, the SiTe standards for ideas are higher than for NiTe: the ideas need to conform with those standards, usually shared standards such as traffic laws or ISO regulations. The weakness of SiTe is not being a stickler for standards, but rather that such standards, however complete, always have holes. NiTe figures out how to handle the "holes": i.e., you need a new standard, or you just need to get something to work, and your standards just don't apply, NiTe will come up with obvious standards based on existing rules. Also, NiTe is very good at troubleshooting: even in an ISO-compliant process, things go wrong in unexpected ways. NiTe will consider possibilities that just don't occur to those who are primarily guided by the official standards. "But it shouldn't happen that way," is the complaint I often hear. My reply, "I know it shouldn't have, but it did." NiTe can backtrack a result to figure out where the flaw in the process lies, simply by considering alternative "standards" that are "wrong", but actually reflect what occurred in real life.

    So SiTe is great w/r to dealing with established process, and will always be sure of how the process should work, and will fit in with that process. NiTe is more resistant to established process, but is great for figuring out what is going wrong with a process, or figuring out what a new process "should be" when there is no good prior example. Both NiTe and SiTe are cooperative with respect to objective process. They will, in general, agree with respect to "it ought to work", but often disagree with respect to whether a new or an established process should be used.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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