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  1. #291
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post


    Give me an example. And maybe the way of expressing the values is everything sometimes, specially for ENFPs who are NOT "the ends justify the means".

    Simple:

    Trust: ISTJ- I can tell you some things about me, but not all.
    ENFP- I can be open with you about everything

    Hardworking: ISTJ- Work first, play later
    ENFP- The work will get done with fun mixed in here and there

    Your last statement- That's exactly my point. To a TJ, the ends will justify the means.

  2. #292
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post




    Oh, thats just too easy!
    Example
    ISTJ (my partner) thinks loyalty from someone else to him is important because it means that the loyal person will do many things for him and he can rely on them when he needs them. he will probably test their loyalty to be sure. he believes that this person may now deserve his loyalty in return.

    ENFP (me) Loyalty is important to me because i know i must have had a profound effect on someone to deserve their loyalty, i must have shown that i am loyal for them to be loyal to me. I believe there must be a mutual feeling of trust. I see a deeper meaning to it, based mainly on emotion.

    We both value loyalty but for different reasons and meanings. He see's it in black and white, i see it in a deeper meaning. He reasons it, i intuitivly trust it.

    Nice example

  3. #293
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Example
    ISTJ (my partner) thinks loyalty from someone else to him is important because it means that the loyal person will do many things for him and he can rely on them when he needs them. he will probably test their loyalty to be sure. he believes that this person may now deserve his loyalty in return.

    ENFP (me) Loyalty is important to me because i know i must have had a profound effect on someone to deserve their loyalty, i must have shown that i am loyal for them to be loyal to me. I believe there must be a mutual feeling of trust. I see a deeper meaning to it, based mainly on emotion.

    We both value loyalty but for different reasons and meanings. He see's it in black and white, i see it in a deeper meaning. He reasons it, i intuitivly trust it.
    Lol exactly! See you just value the same thing because it's called the same thing, but in completely different ways. I don't test people's loyalty and I frown upon it. Loyalty to me is not doing many things for me. In fact, I don't want anything done to me. I just want that mutual profoundness.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Simple:

    Trust: ISTJ- I can tell you some things about me, but not all.
    ENFP- I can be open with you about everything

    Hardworking: ISTJ- Work first, play later
    ENFP- The work will get done with fun mixed in here and there

    Your last statement- That's exactly my point. To a TJ, the ends will justify the means.
    Again...exactly. If you are with me and I'm open with you about everything I expect the same thing in return, otherwise it is unequal. Besides, if you don't share things about yourself with your partner who are you gonna share it with...

    And about work, again, that's an example of why it's not compatible most of the time. Where's the compromise? The ENFP might work that way, but when he/she feels like it and it's counter-productive to try to do it any other way.

    And yes, to a TJ the end justify the means, but to an FP they dont.

  4. #294
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Lol exactly! See you just value the same thing because it's called the same thing, but in completely different ways. I don't test people's loyalty and I frown upon it. Loyalty to me is not doing many things for me. In fact, I don't want anything done to me. I just want that mutual profoundness.



    Again...exactly. If you are with me and I'm open with you about everything I expect the same thing in return, otherwise it is unequal. Besides, if you don't share things about yourself with your partner who are you gonna share it with...

    And about work, again, that's an example of why it's not compatible most of the time. Where's the compromise? The ENFP might work that way, but when he/she feels like it and it's counter-productive to try to do it any other way.

    And yes, to a TJ the end justify the means, but to an FP they dont.
    Loyalty, Trust, and Hard Working, are all subjective terms- so you'd expect some kind of difference in them. They are still the same values.

    Actually I came back to edit my statement about TJs....it's more so the judgement characteristic, so its not just my Te, but your Fi- Your feelings may very well dictate the end to justify the means.

    Example:

    To an ITJ love is more so expressed in actions. Your Fi may require that you have it expressed verbally. If your SO can't say it, then by your standards they don't mean it.

  5. #295
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    I get off on justifying the means with the end.


  6. #296
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Loyalty, Trust, and Hard Working, are all subjective terms- so you'd expect some kind of difference in them. They are still the same values.

    Actually I came back to edit my statement about TJs....it's more so the judgement characteristic, so its not just my Te, but your Fi- Your feelings may very well dictate the end to justify the means.

    Example:

    To an ITJ love is more so expressed in actions. Your Fi may require that you have it expressed verbally. If your SO can't say it, then by your standards they don't mean it.
    No, they do mean it. But if I'm wired to value having it said to me frequently does it really matter? And ENFP love is also expressed in actions. Just more abstractly like sticking up for one's values rather than more concrete S stuff.


    My feelings never really dictate the end justifies the means. Fi and Te are both judging yes, but they do it differently. That's the very basis of typology.


    And what it means to have trust is what matters. Not the word trust. What being loyal entails is what really matters, not the word.

  7. #297
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Lol exactly! See you just value the same thing because it's called the same thing, but in completely different ways. I don't test people's loyalty and I frown upon it. Loyalty to me is not doing many things for me. In fact, I don't want anything done to me. I just want that mutual profoundness.
    ?
    I'm a bit confused (bolded-for me then to me).
    Do you frown upon testing peoples loyalty? or just loyalty in general?
    I'd say the specifics are down to individual character.
    Is mutual profoundness loyalty?
    I'm not trying to argue or antagonize you i am genuinely not understanding you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Again...exactly. If you are with me and I'm open with you about everything I expect the same thing in return, otherwise it is unequal. Besides, if you don't share things about yourself with your partner who are you gonna share it with...
    Ah yeah, heres the thing. You expect it in return i wouldn't expect, like maybe, even hope, but not expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    And about work, again, that's an example of why it's not compatible most of the time. Where's the compromise? The ENFP might work that way, but when he/she feels like it and it's counter-productive to try to do it any other way.

    And yes, to a TJ the end justify the means, but to an FP they dont.
    The compromise is that the enfp inspires the istj-ta daa!
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #298
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    ?
    I'm a bit confused (bolded-for me then to me).
    Do you frown upon testing peoples loyalty? or just loyalty in general?
    I'd say the specifics are down to individual character.
    Is mutual profoundness loyalty?
    I'm not trying to argue or antagonize you i am genuinely not understanding you.
    I frown upon testing people's loyalty depending on how it is done. Well the specifcs are down to individual, I'm just saying I wouldn't want to be tested.

    Mutual profoundness can be a part of loyalty yes. It's easy to be loyal out of mutual profoundness. I would never be loyal out of duty for example.



    Ah yeah, heres the thing. You expect it in return i wouldn't expect, like maybe, even hope, but not expect.
    I was giving an hypothetical example. And wasn't talking about me. Also, by expect I mean "want from a relationship". It's like the old example of the guy who buys flowers to the girl who doesn't care for presents. It's can be a genuine way of showing feelings I guess...but it's better when two people like receiving the same kinds of things.

    The compromise is that the enfp inspires the istj-ta daa!
    Inspires the ISTJ to what? To work? But what if the ENFP doesn't want to work. I'm not saying both can't offer things the other doesn't have...that's the whole basis of the attraction for most in the first place I'm guessing...I'm saying, what does each individual have to give up in the process?

  9. #299
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    what does each individual have to give up in the process?
    I don't know. Personally i'm trying to make compromises, so i'm guessing that giving up should be exchanged for compromise. I can cope with compromise.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #300
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    I don't know. Personally i'm trying to make compromises, so i'm guessing that giving up should be exchanged for compromise. I can cope with compromise.
    Yes compromise is a needed part of a relationship. Too much compromise spells something else though. But whatever, I've already explained my view relatively in-depth I think.

    If two people are more than happy together no one is to judge. I just think should think very clearly about what makes them happy in a relationship and constantly make assessments. Denying my essence and the way I go about my life is not something I'm personally willing to do. Being with someone that goes about things in a antagonically different way than mine would personally not give me happiness and enable me to be my carefree, freedom-loving, rule-unabiding self. No parenting for me. Not to mention I like talking...a lot...and talking with Ss (nevermind ISTJs :P) can get boring after a while when you are N.

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