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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Well since you have us all figured out, there's no need for you to participate in this forum.
    *fake non amused laughter*

    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    We're just all part of a larger system, in a way. The SJs just maintain the order. We couldn't live without the NTs because the SJs just don't have the capacity to think in the manner of an NT. We're always going to have the conflict between the types, and it's something you just have to accept as the norm just because people are different. Black and white judgments of people because you don't approve of their thought process are pointless. We're all in this together, whether we like each other or not.

    I guess you could say that's a major part of my goal in life, to seek an understanding of the systems that allow for order within our universe.
    The order maintained is what society is "supposed" to be like, really the only achievement the human race is making at the moment is over population. Though... plenty of insignificant achievements are the bread and butter and oh so praised.

    All in this together? Yes, of course, lets all just get along as humans are SO great at doing that (war anyone?)

    Also in my experience MOST SJs don't appreciate NTs in the slightest, we are labeled as "eccentric" "weird" "losers" etc

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    *fake non amused laughter*



    The order maintained is what society is "supposed" to be like, really the only achievement the human race is making at the moment is over population. Though... plenty of insignificant achievements are the bread and butter and oh so praised.

    All in this together? Yes, of course, lets all just get along as humans are SO great at doing that (war anyone?)

    Also in my experience MOST SJs don't appreciate NTs in the slightest, we are labeled as "eccentric" "weird" "losers" etc
    I bet you are Ni-ing that conclusion. All types can be labeled those things. That's not just regulated to NTs. I know some wierd SJs...the type that will save all of their emails by printing them out, and leave their chairs in certain positions, and if it's moved, they will freak. The kind that count their steps from 'x' to 'y', and have a routines/processes from getting dressed in the morning to carrying out their workout routine to their workday that, if it's not carried out in that manner, they have trouble functioning. That's wierd.

    The balanced, mature view of people and their abilities is that all are necessary for success overall, however 'success' may be defined.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    *fake non amused laughter*



    The order maintained is what society is "supposed" to be like, really the only achievement the human race is making at the moment is over population. Though... plenty of insignificant achievements are the bread and butter and oh so praised.

    All in this together? Yes, of course, lets all just get along as humans are SO great at doing that (war anyone?)

    Also in my experience MOST SJs don't appreciate NTs in the slightest, we are labeled as "eccentric" "weird" "losers" etc
    I just find beauty in the chaos.


  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    Are ISTJs frustrated by other ISTJs (or maybe just SJs) who are stubborn and resist change?
    in other words...

    how do ISTJs go about challenging the structures of other ISTJs that are in conflict with their own ways of doing things?
    in other, other words...

    For example...
    Given that ISTJs don't like change && They like what make sense to them, their own ways of doing things, and what is familiar to their already existing experiences, etc...
    so.. what happens when an ISTJ tries to bring change to a new environment because they think their way is better.. like say starting a new job somewhere and you think you know best because it worked best for you in the past and you see very strong flaws that you find extremely unacceptable
    Very good questions...

    Are ISTJs frustrated by other ISTJs (or maybe just SJs) who are stubborn and resist change?

    Yes! What's 'right' differs from individual to individual, so it's hard when you are dealing with 2 people who are pretty sure in their way.


    What happens when an ISTJ tries to bring change to a new environment because they think their way is better.. like say starting a new job somewhere and you think you know best because it worked best for you in the past and you see very strong flaws that you find extremely unacceptable


    This is exactly what I'm experiencing now. I left an external accouting firm, and now am doing internal audit, so I've seen different organizations and practices that work and that just plain suck.

    Not to get too detailed, but when I first got here, We had a document stored in 3 different places (The database, or official record of our work, a shared drive, and hardcopy.) So if you updated one, you had to update all 3. My first assignment, I went along with everything, just to take it all in. After that, I made some suggestions to change things (if it's in the database and that's the final reviewed product, why do we need it in those other places?) My ESTJ boss' initial reaction was uneasiness, because it wasn't that triple insurance that he's used to, PLUS because his boss (ISTJ)'s instructions were to work it this way.

    So what I did was, instead of just saying it, I put it into action, planted little seeds here and there with the how's and why's it's beneficial to change, and even pointed out some authoritative guidance (ISTJs LOVE facts, remember?), And let the results speak, in addition to the verbal, and eventually we've moved away from that practice.

    Don't do as Amira says her sister does- whine. Don't try to 'force' them to do something, they may carry it out, or worse, they may not, and then what do you do? Especially at work, you can't hit somebody for disobedience. ISTJs especially will sometimes try to force their opinions, but if that doesn't work, they are at a loss on how to motivate.

    My ESTJ boss cannot manage his ISTJ boss. the ISTJ is a hand's off micromanager, and the ESTJ takes everything he says literally. So if the ISTJ makes a suggestion, the ESTJ will take it as law and will pass it on to me and my ENFJ coworker exactly how the ISTJ states it, but sometimes he'll add on additional reins to the request. It drives me crazy! The ESTJs peer, an ISTP boss, however, will take what the ISTJ says, filters it, and passes it on to his team in a more balanced matter. So you can see how hard it is when there are multiple SJs in the mix.

  5. #95
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Very good questions...

    Are ISTJs frustrated by other ISTJs (or maybe just SJs) who are stubborn and resist change?

    Yes! What's 'right' differs from individual to individual, so it's hard when you are dealing with 2 people who are pretty sure in their way.
    The problem I have with this most of the time is that you can be pretty stuck on something just because of your own tunnel vision. I can be on the outside of a situation and see something else that needs to be fixed that the stubborn ISTJ is doing. Usually, though, I could logically point out why what they're doing is wrong, but I try to limit it because I might end up hurting someone's feelings.


  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Very good questions...

    Are ISTJs frustrated by other ISTJs (or maybe just SJs) who are stubborn and resist change?

    Yes! What's 'right' differs from individual to individual, so it's hard when you are dealing with 2 people who are pretty sure in their way.


    What happens when an ISTJ tries to bring change to a new environment because they think their way is better.. like say starting a new job somewhere and you think you know best because it worked best for you in the past and you see very strong flaws that you find extremely unacceptable


    This is exactly what I'm experiencing now. I left an external accouting firm, and now am doing internal audit, so I've seen different organizations and practices that work and that just plain suck.

    Not to get too detailed, but when I first got here, We had a document stored in 3 different places (The database, or official record of our work, a shared drive, and hardcopy.) So if you updated one, you had to update all 3. My first assignment, I went along with everything, just to take it all in. After that, I made some suggestions to change things (if it's in the database and that's the final reviewed product, why do we need it in those other places?) My ESTJ boss' initial reaction was uneasiness, because it wasn't that triple insurance that he's used to, PLUS because his boss (ISTJ)'s instructions were to work it this way.

    So what I did was, instead of just saying it, I put it into action, planted little seeds here and there with the how's and why's it's beneficial to change, and even pointed out some authoritative guidance (ISTJs LOVE facts, remember?), And let the results speak, in addition to the verbal, and eventually we've moved away from that practice.

    Don't do as Amira says her sister does- whine. Don't try to 'force' them to do something, they may carry it out, or worse, they may not, and then what do you do? Especially at work, you can't hit somebody for disobedience. ISTJs especially will sometimes try to force their opinions, but if that doesn't work, they are at a loss on how to motivate.

    My ESTJ boss cannot manage his ISTJ boss. the ISTJ is a hand's off micromanager, and the ESTJ takes everything he says literally. So if the ISTJ makes a suggestion, the ESTJ will take it as law and will pass it on to me and my ENFJ coworker exactly how the ISTJ states it, but sometimes he'll add on additional reins to the request. It drives me crazy! The ESTJs peer, an ISTP boss, however, will take what the ISTJ says, filters it, and passes it on to his team in a more balanced matter. So you can see how hard it is when there are multiple SJs in the mix.
    When I get orders and pass it on, I also pass on the reasons as it releases the reigns of others, but keeps the goal and everything in mind. If you have a better way or a suggestion have at it, but we need to reach XYZ goal. I dig for reasons so I can step around the orders in a fashion that doesnt cause issues and produces the best results.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    When I get orders and pass it on, I also pass on the reasons as it releases the reigns of others, but keeps the goal and everything in mind. If you have a better way or a suggestion have at it, but we need to reach XYZ goal. I dig for reasons so I can step around the orders in a fashion that doesnt cause issues and produces the best results.
    That's how it should be....to give the recipients an opportunity to accomplish the goal within their comforts, and I consciously try to keep that in mind instead of restricting others.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    The problem I have with this most of the time is that you can be pretty stuck on something just because of your own tunnel vision. I can be on the outside of a situation and see something else that needs to be fixed that the stubborn ISTJ is doing. Usually, though, I could logically point out why what they're doing is wrong, but I try to limit it because I might end up hurting someone's feelings.
    Good point...ISTJs can see the flaws and call them out, but sometimes it's not advantageous, especially if you are dealing with a similar type. You want to be diplomatic in how you approach it.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Good point...ISTJs can see the flaws and call them out, but sometimes it's not advantageous, especially if you are dealing with a similar type. You want to be diplomatic in how you approach it.
    Selling thick skins for $50 a piece.


  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amira View Post

    LOL, yes. My oldest ISTJ brother can be like banging my head on a brick wall! He always does what he believes is right and he CANNOT bend if he thinks he's in danger of doing something at all "wrong" - i.e., he is not really capable of driving even 2 miles over the speed limit. He's a bit extreme, though. I have a younger ISTJ brother who is a lot more flexible. But it does sometimes makes me feel for other people dealing with my ISTJness!



    age: Well, I'm a lady so I won't answer in too much detail. Say middle of 20s.

    So you are one of 3 ISTJ siblings and an ENFP? Anymore and what are their types?

    That's interesting....I'm one of 11, and while I haven't finished typing them all, I'd say I have one other ISTJ (estimated) brother who is 9 years older than me, but that's it. I think I have one IxxP brother, an ENTP brother (estimated), an ENFP sister (confirmed), ESFP sister (confirmed), ESFx sister (estimated), and the rest I have not typed.

    I think it's funny you can see the extremes in your family, with your brother who won't drive over the speedlimit- I think that's the image a lot of people have of SJs.

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