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Thread: SJs and Justice

  1. #1
    Member Caligula's Avatar
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    Default SJs and Justice

    Hello SJs! I have a question for you. I apologize if this is a stupid question or inherently answered in the description of SJs.

    How do you feel about justice? Do you like America's justice system/the justice system of other countries? Do you think to world is just?

    I was wondering because I personally believe that people always get what's coming to them, regardless of circumstances. I believe outsiders can give a little push in either direction to help, but generally it's good to not get involved in others' affairs.
    Things usually sort themselves out. (Yes, I know there are exceptions. I am talking about "in general" here.)

    How do you feel about it?

    (I wanted to know if this is a specifically SJ trait because that could help me to figure out my type.)
    Living is never a waste of time.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    No, I don't place much faith on the justice system of any country. I think that laws are way too complex and thus became arbitrary and ambiguous. With good lawyers you can twist and bend the book quite much. And the process can take up way too long.

    But if we speak about "karma", the idea in which everybody gets what they were asking for, then I have some beliefs in it. Sooner or later, bad people will have to face their deeds. And sometimes good deeds are rewarded afterwards. But mostly not. Good people do not get rewarded nearly as often as they should, and bad people get away way too often. Money rules over everything else.

    But I don't care much about the legal issues and laws. I'm a good citizen. Laws are made for bad people.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    I don't think the world is just, no. We are far from a just society. There is a lot of (hidden) corruption, manipulation and lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
    I was wondering because I personally believe that people always get what's coming to them, regardless of circumstances. I believe outsiders can give a little push in either direction to help, but generally it's good to not get involved in others' affairs.
    Things usually sort themselves out. (Yes, I know there are exceptions. I am talking about "in general" here.)
    I do believe from a spiritual point of view that there is an inherent order and cause-and-effect to things, and there is a heaven and hell and that perfect justice will be applied eventually, whether that is seen now or not. So you will get what you deserve. And sure, people's personal affairs are their business. But individuals make up society, and when it comes to social justice, you have to get involved or there won't be any change. A lot of bad things happen because people are simply too passive or don't even want to know in the first place. Big changes towards greater justice did not come about because things sorted themselves out. I think there are no exceptions to this rule. People over generations worked and sacrificed for it to happen, and it is a constant state. Ground is constantly gained and lost and gained again, etc. Peace and justice don't just unfold and then there's nothing to do anymore. It is dynamic and changing and a constant equilibrium that has to be maintained, upheld and fought for.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

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    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    And speaking of punishments, I feel that prison is awfully primitive and brutal solution to problems. Well, actually it isn't a solution at all... it's more like a container for solutions. The way I see is that people ending up in prisons are mostly just flawed. They might lack self control and self understanding. From time to time they lose control to their emotions and insticts, and thus end up doing crimes and getting caught.

    People say that the world is unjust. Well, what if the world is just and our own concept of justice is twisted? Who are we to decide which actions are just and which ones are not? Is it not just for person to die after falling one hundred meters? I think it is very natural and very just. But is it just for person to be pushed from the 30th floor of a building?

    Well... my ranting is probably sounding very weird to you, but what I'm trying to get at is that everything that happens in this world, happens because of laws of physics and other similar forces. We are nothing but biological machines, following our programming. So if all the variables in the world could be calculated, we would be able to predict the future with 100% certainty. Thus every action taken and every reaction happening would be equally just, as they all follow the rules and laws of physics and similar forces.

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    Member Caligula's Avatar
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    ISTJs: All I can say is I love you guys.
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  6. #6
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
    Hello SJs! I have a question for you. I apologize if this is a stupid question or inherently answered in the description of SJs.

    How do you feel about justice? Do you like America's justice system/the justice system of other countries? Do you think to world is just?

    I was wondering because I personally believe that people always get what's coming to them, regardless of circumstances. I believe outsiders can give a little push in either direction to help, but generally it's good to not get involved in others' affairs.
    Things usually sort themselves out. (Yes, I know there are exceptions. I am talking about "in general" here.)

    How do you feel about it?

    (I wanted to know if this is a specifically SJ trait because that could help me to figure out my type.)
    I don't think the world is just. After all, there's so much irrefutable evidence, you know? Take what's happening in Haiti as an example. Unless you're one of those crazies who thinks that Haiti sold its soul to the Devil, there is no good reason to think that it deserved what it got.

    HOWEVER... I love our justice system. There are flaws, of course, but there are always flaws, and based on my very limited knowledge of justice systems around the world, ours is on the "pretty good" end of the spectrum. The principles that the American justice system is based on, though... well, they give me the warm fuzzies. When it works, it's awesome!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #7
    Senior Member sticker's Avatar
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    I neither like nor dislike the justice system in my country, but I subscribe to some sort of code of conduct, which is to not cause trouble for anyone for my own pleasure (though I admit I sometimes joke a little too much and may hurt my friends' feelings...)
    I don't believe in doublestandards, kinda like 'if you do this you can't tell me not to do this either' and 'if what you are doing is going to harm others just because it's for your own pleasure and not because you have no choice but to do so, don't do it.' To me, that is what I think is justice (might not apply to everyone else. In a sense, it's nearly a utilitarian view, but not a strict adherence and also because I won't go all out to do selfless stuff just because someone I do not know nor care is in an undesired state.
    If you know DnD terms well, it's most closely linked to being 'true neutral'.
    http://easydamus.com/trueneutral.html. (Because of that, my friend accused me of being amoral like a rock. lol)
    Take a look at 'The Ten True Neutral Commandments', 'Ten True Neutral Sins' and 'True Neutral and Society', most apply to me though I don't agree with more than half of 'The True Neutral Adventurer'... Yes I'm aware I'm quoting stuff out from a game's moral system. xD


    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    Well... my ranting is probably sounding very weird to you, but what I'm trying to get at is that everything that happens in this world, happens because of laws of physics and other similar forces. We are nothing but biological machines, following our programming. So if all the variables in the world could be calculated, we would be able to predict the future with 100% certainty. Thus every action taken and every reaction happening would be equally just, as they all follow the rules and laws of physics and similar forces.

    Still following me?
    That is one awesome post. (Who says Ss can't rant weirdly? )
    What you said reminded me of Laplace's Demon.
    In the history of science, Laplace's demon is a thought experiment described by Pierre-Simon Laplace in a paper published in 1814 involving a hypothetical entity envisioned such that if it knew the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe then it could use deterministic principles to reveal the entire course of cosmic events, past and future.
    I do not know if such a being exist, I think that's what most people might term as 'god' or a higher being as it observes and knows what is happening and what will happen. It also ties in with the topic of if freedom, will, rights and such are just illusions since everything might already be set in stone from the beginning. Which means that a murderer shouldn't be hanged because it was not entirely under his 'will' that he/she committed murder but rather, as Habba said, laws of physics and other similar forces, since theoretically it would have just been 'predestined' as to how the neurons in his/her brain fired to cause about the said murder. But that's another different topic that I'm not familiar with and won't know what I'm talking about 95% of the time so...

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    Senior Member uberrogo's Avatar
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    I prefer the type of justice you get to administer yourself... revenge. I think it is the most fair. Also avenging others strikes my fancy.

    My opinion of most justice systems is that it is too complex and that having to have lawyers in a legal system just goes to show how overly complex it is. I have always been suspicious of the legal system because they dont teach you the laws in school, you are just supposed to know them. Which is ironic because ignorance of the law is no excuse.

    Lately I have been turned on to mercy and I have been seeing how that goes with me.
    If Men's Health magazine was true, you would never need to buy more than one issue.

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