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  1. #21
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    From what I have read from other ISTJs sometimes you just need to force them to do things, its a balancing act when you do this as you need to know when to back down and then just not worry about it.

    I question for ISTJs, when a situation like this happens do you even notice the other people not having fun or do you get stuck in your frustration with yourself and possibly the things around you because you cant bring yourself to join in?

    I'd qualify that statement- force is too strong of a word in this situation; I'd say try to arrange things so that the ISTJ is exposed, whether they think it or not. Like others said, a smaller gathering may be all that they need, eventually they being able to handle bigger events.

    To answer your question: I know for myself, when I used to go to clubs and stuff I felt like everyone else was having fun and I was the only doof standing around. I guess that's the inferior Ne. Your question makes a good point that there are probably others with you at that club, who aren't the most outgoing, and they may seem chill, but they are probably there out of obligation with a group of friends, like me, an ISTJ. I think it's just a matter of getting over yourself in these situations, and have a drink! That will loosen you up.

  2. #22
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    If friends decide to go out/do something that an ISTJ doesn't want to do/doesn't enjoy doing... why do they still tag along?? He still insists on coming, and while he is there, he is noticeably and obviously not having any fun.
    He goes because it's the normal social thing to do, and thus it is what he has to do, even if he doesn't want to. ISTJs often do things, just because it's the norm, not because they really feel like doing it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I'd qualify that statement- force is too strong of a word in this situation; I'd say try to arrange things so that the ISTJ is exposed, whether they think it or not. Like others said, a smaller gathering may be all that they need, eventually they being able to handle bigger events.

    To answer your question: I know for myself, when I used to go to clubs and stuff I felt like everyone else was having fun and I was the only doof standing around. I guess that's the inferior Ne. Your question makes a good point that there are probably others with you at that club, who aren't the most outgoing, and they may seem chill, but they are probably there out of obligation with a group of friends, like me, an ISTJ. I think it's just a matter of getting over yourself in these situations, and have a drink! That will loosen you up.
    I see what your saying about force. I dont mean physical or threats or anything like that. Probably should figure out a better way to word that. I tend to use force in a broad way and to mean the person has no other choice by his own will or want. I guess in this case he feels forced to because of social obligation, I have never felt forced to do anything out of social obligation I feel more forced because of personal obligation.

    edit: In the OPs case I would feel more forced to stay home because they were not able to have fun with me around.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #24
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    [I]
    The only thing I can think of duty-related is: the fun stuff you're talking about is normally clubs and parties right? Maybe he's coming along because he wants to protect his woman and make sure random guys aren't paying you attention he wouldn't like?
    Yeah, they are usually parties that consist of more than 6 people, whether its going to a local show, club, bar (lowkey or not), just things he wouldn't suggest to do. He isn't a drinker (either am I really...) so bars for him just obviously don't make sense. He doesnt drink/get drunk/dance/like rap music. It's so funny, because I don't dance or any of that either, but I am starting to realize this is more of an E vs. I conflict than ENFP vs. ISTJ, I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    How old are the both of you? If he's responding that way about clubs and other things, is there some kind of way you can exclude him from them, and it not affect your relationship?

    What does he like to do? How balanced are your activities between these type of outings and more solitary things that he's more comfortable with?
    I'm 24, he's 27. It's scary when we exclude each other from activities, because I am worried he is going to think we are too different to be with each other, and ISTJs value 'shared activities' right? but I do suppose that him coming out and not having fun is more detrimental.

    The balance, I feel, is unfair. And this is my fault, he is pretty I, and he likes sitting at home, watching TV, doing routine things. I can do that for the most part... Let's say we see each other 4 out of 7 days of the week. 3 of those days, we are doing things that he likes to do, 1 of the days is events that I plan, that he 'doesn't have fun doing'. I can handle doing his things, and try and enjoy himself, but I think he's more unhappy with my events than I am with his events, so maybe that's why it's unfair in my eyes. Maybe I need to just tone down the kinds of events I want him to attend with me. I do have more friends than him, though we do share the same group of friends. He just doesn't like my other groups of friends, and those are the people I drag him/he volunteers to come out with where he doesn't have fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    I admit that I am/have been quite much like him. I have been looking for "a way to loosen up and have fun with everyone else", but I usually end up failing because I can't really hang out with people I don't know or don't feel to be kin-spirited.

    So I'm trying to force myself to do something that doesn't come naturally to me, just to blend in and be like everyone else. It took me years to noticed that I don't have to be like everybody else, and it's perfectly okay to be odd one out. And actually to embrace that oddness, and max it!



    Here's a good spot for some self-reflection.

    What is it with him that bugs him off with these kinds of people? Most of the time some person or thing irritates us, it is because we project our own negative feelings into it. Maybe he hates those kinds of people because they are having fun, and he is not. So perhaps he's bitter about it.
    I do see him trying to have fun, or not get too worried about it right BEFORE the event starts, then as soon as we get there, and he sees an initiation dislike, it's all downhill from there. He has told me that he thinks "Maybe it won't be bad this time..." but then things set him off.

    Bolded part.... this is HIM. He loves the fact that he's not like everyone else. He's definitely lives the idea of "Be in the world, but not of it". He likes knowing that he isn't drinking his life away, slutting himself out, or doing drugs. He likes being different. And I think when he is surrounded with people doing this things, he wants to even more stick out like a sore thumb and just cause friction. Like.. "Hey. You're dumb for doing this. And I am a better person because I don't". He doesn't voice this, but I think deep down, he just looks down on people who are different than him, but not intentionally... Ugh, i can't explain it. This probably makes no sense. He's a good guy, but sometimes he's so stuck in his ways that he can't understand that other people don't have the same values as him. (Fi issue??)

    * Self reflection * --- You suggest self-reflection.. for me? or for him? I am not a slut, lol.

    He doesn't like those kinds of 'slutty girls, drunk people' because he doesn't do it. He has never been around it before until I brought him into 'this new world' I am not a slut, I do not get drunk. But my friends do. He just becomes angered when he sees people acting immature (no offense to people who get drunk or whatever...), I do agree with him for the most part, but I don't let these feelings get in the way of a friendship. However, as I write this, I realize that that these are people I have been friends with, that he has only known for the years we've been dating.. so I guess it makes sense since he has nothing invested in these people.....

    I don't think hes bitter because he takes pride in the fact that he doesn't enjoy drinking or clubbing.

    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    * Introversion really limits the situations I'm likely to enjoy myself in. I seldom like big parties. I hate clubbing. This was more of a problem when I was younger. Now I generally keep myself out of those situations in the first place.

    * When I'm not having fun, I have a really hard time masking it. It sounds like he does, too. He may even be trying to punish you in some twisted way.

    -- it sounds like your ISTJ is deliberately bringing you down with him -- and that it's not in my own best interests. It's just not a socially mature way to behave.


    You've got to make him use his Thinking function. Maybe you can make him realize there's no logical reason for him to attend. You go out and have a good time, he stays home and finishes his book or plays WoW or whatever. If a sense of social obligation is in play, perhaps you can point out how socially unacceptable it is to act the way he does at these events; there's an obligation to be halfway decent to people in these situations. Have you told him explicitly that his behavior upsets you? His Te should be receptive to these things. As an introvert, he might even feel relieved if he commits to not attending some of these functions.

    The last idea I'll float: does he hate all your friends? I've already said that I don't usually like big parties, but if I've got someone to talk to all night, I'm set. You probably won't have a good time if you go out and then don't leave his side all night, but isn't there anyone else whose company he enjoys, who might talk to him when you're doing something else?
    Agreed. I am learning that it is I vs. E. I love introverts in a relationship but not as a friendship (eugh, that sounds weird). I need to start viewing him as someone so much more to me than just a friend to me.

    ** Bold.. oh gosh, why would he be trying to punish me??? I always thought ISTJs were just so kind and unemotional and manipulative....

    I like your advice about getting into his Te function. I will look into that. We are usually very good at coming up with solutions and having great talks, so I am not afraid to bring up this issue again He does know that this bothers me, usually he never reacts AS INTENSE as he did this time. He abandoned us. When I talked to him about it, he understood what he did was wrong, but he couldn't see any other solution. I don't see this extremity happening as much, but the other random events we have that he doesn't enjoy, I want him to try--because sometimes, he has to come for social reasons, but I will pick and choose which are best for him to attend better, I suppose.

    He doesn't 'hate' my friends, but I do see a lack of respect. Him and my friends have nothing in common. I knew the other night at the club was a killer because one of his close friends showed up, and I tried to use that as motivation for him to come to the crowd and hang out, but he completely disregarded it..

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Is there a particular girl in the group he seems to have taken an interest in?
    Me But hes not impressing me when he acts the way he does in those situations :steam:


    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    When I say "mature" I mean mature in a social sense? For instance, I think most people would either be strong enough to say "No, I don't want to go." or "Sure, I'll go." and have a good time, just for the sake of satisfying you.
    Yeah, sometimes he does pass, sometimes he doesn't. This last event was something that he should have been there for, and he knew that, but he ruined the night for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    While I am not ISTJ, I still dont do clubs and when I go I dont go crazy. I personally enjoy the atmosphere, but not the socializing. He may feel pressured out of obligation like you said and that pressure alone may be causing the frustration. Like he wants to but he doesnt know how to let go. I know for me I wish I was that social, but I would be the one in the lounge just watching everything and enjoying that. What about a lower intensity club like a country club? Or maybe taking some private dancing lessons so he feels more comfortable.

    Could he possibly be afraid you will hook up with someone if he is not their or forget about him? Like getting caught up in the moment and doing things without thinking about it? Things like that always surface in a guys mind when it comes to clubs and stuff because of the atmosphere. Knowing ENFPs it may be your personality that causes this, not saying that you would do anything, just how you act may drive this fear. If you are a flirty and playful type it may take some time for him to learn to trust you. There are some struggles at first between an I and an E in regards to talking, socializing, etc that needs to be overcome.

    Its just not worth trying if its not gonna be appreciated.

    From what I have read from other ISTJs sometimes you just need to force them to do things, its a balancing act when you do this as you need to know when to back down and then just not worry about it.
    We tried to go to a low key 'artsy' bar a couple months ago with 5 other friends, and he didn't have fun because there was a jazz band playing and it was "too loud for conversation". Here's a portion of our conversation:

    "Are we suppose to talk in this bar?"
    "...Yes, we are... it's a bar where you go with friends..so yeah"
    "Well then why is the band so loud? It's impossible to hold a conversation. Why would people come here to talk?"
    "...Because people love the music and it's suppose to set a mood to get people having fun and talking"
    "Well, when we go to parties at houses the music isn't this loud..."

    I Don't Know What to Sayyy to that!

    * * I REALLY HOPE HE DOESN'T THINK I'D CHEAT ON HIM. He trusts me, he says he does. he's one of the most un-jealous person I have ever seen. Irrationally, this kinda hurts, lol, but I'd rather be with someone who isnt jealous than someone who is extremely jealous.

    Bolded part.... Absolutely right. It is not worth it if I can't appreciate it. Am I being a jerk for not appreciating him trying to come out???

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    He goes because it's the normal social thing to do, and thus it is what he has to do, even if he doesn't want to. ISTJs often do things, just because it's the norm, not because they really feel like doing it.
    He's so picky about what he views as a 'societal norm'. Why wouldn't he think that it's a societal norm to not run away to a lounge area by yourself while all your friends are inside having fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    edit: In the OPs case I would feel more forced to stay home because they were not able to have fun with me around.
    Would this hurt their feelings if they knew I wanted them to come, but am disappointed in how they are acting, so I don't want them to come anymore. Doesn't that seem like a punishment, like I am punishing him or something?

  5. #25
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    He's so picky about what he views as a 'societal norm'. Why wouldn't he think that it's a societal norm to not run away to a lounge area by yourself while all your friends are inside having fun?
    Hanging out in the lounge area is probably the best he can do. In his head, it's better than staying home and being a loser.

    He's not ever going to be a life of the party type. But his sense of social obligation forces him to at least attend the party. ISTJs are the classic wallflowers. They always show up, but don't do anything. Maybe try getting him drunk.

  6. #26
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Maybe try getting him drunk.

    Haha, i've often wondered what that would be like. He's never had a sip of alcohol until he dated me. He's not a fan

  7. #27
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Yeah he sounds like a Debbie Downer for real. He might be just that severely introverted that he can't appreciate this type of interaction. I mean, the slutty drunk girls thing, yeah he has every right to not feel them, but all of your friends? I don't know if that's normal.

    XtremeENFP, I think you have to see how serious this is for you....think if this will be an issue in the future, when you are older, and probably less prone to hit the town as often. It sounds like it doesn't impact your relationship too bad; it's just a smear in an otherwise good relationship, but no amount of info from people on a message board will influence you.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Hanging out in the lounge area is probably the best he can do. In his head, it's better than staying home and being a loser.

    He's not ever going to be a life of the party type. But his sense of social obligation forces him to at least attend the party. ISTJs are the classic wallflowers. They always show up, but don't do anything. Maybe try getting him drunk.
    I just see this as a deep set insecurity or a fear, especially if being drunk loosens him up and gets him past his inhibitions.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #29
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I am starting to realize this is more of an E vs. I conflict than ENFP vs. ISTJ, I think...
    I think you're mostly right. I don't think his T or J are helping, though. A little Fe would go a long way in these situations, and the adaptivity and spontaneity of a P couldn't hurt. I think once he starts to have a bad time, he has trouble breaking away from that.

    He loves the fact that he's not like everyone else. He's definitely lives the idea of "Be in the world, but not of it". He likes knowing that he isn't drinking his life away, slutting himself out, or doing drugs. He likes being different. And I think when he is surrounded with people doing this things, he wants to even more stick out like a sore thumb and just cause friction. Like.. "Hey. You're dumb for doing this. And I am a better person because I don't". He doesn't voice this, but I think deep down, he just looks down on people who are different than him, but not intentionally... Ugh, i can't explain it. This probably makes no sense. He's a good guy, but sometimes he's so stuck in his ways that he can't understand that other people don't have the same values as him. (Fi issue??)
    This is not just introversion (I suspect it's an IxTJ thing). Do you know what it is that makes him so unhappy when he goes out with you? Is he bored? Does he feel excluded or uncool? Does he feel like the cool people are judging him? Does just being exposed to these things he looks down on upset him? Does he ever use words like "depressing" to describe what he's seeing?

    How is he afterwards? Does he brighten up the moment you leave, or is he sullen and moody the rest of the night? Is he angry? Withdrawn? Exhausted? Does he keep complaining even after you've left? What about the next day? Does he feel dirty or compromised?

    He may have decided that drinking, or the club scene or whatever, is stupid and beneath him -- meaning it is also beneath those fit to associate with him.

    He doesn't 'hate' my friends, but I do see a lack of respect. Him and my friends have nothing in common.
    He doesn't like those kinds of 'slutty girls, drunk people' because he doesn't do it. He has never been around it before until I brought him into 'this new world' I am not a slut, I do not get drunk. But my friends do. He just becomes angered when he sees people acting immature ... these are people I have been friends with, that he has only known for the years we've been dating.. so I guess it makes sense since he has nothing invested in these people.....
    Yeah, he hates your friends. I mean, not 100% of the time, or literal hate like he wants to kill them. But if you decided you were never ever going to hang out with any of them again, it would probably make him really happy. He would never ask you to give up your friends, but if you decided to on your own...

    I don't know if ISTJs share this characteristic, but it's an INTJ thing: I have trouble masking my contempt for people I don't respect. The more I and less F he is, the more pronounced this is likely to be. Just hanging out with people I don't respect, even the thought of hanging out with them, is enough to upset my mood.

    If he has decided these behaviors (drinking, etc.) are "wrong" or immature or too mainstream or whatever, it's likely that even witnessing them upsets him. How can he have a good time when he's surrounded by these people?

    We tried to go to a low key 'artsy' bar a couple months ago with 5 other friends, and he didn't have fun because there was a jazz band playing and it was "too loud for conversation". Here's a portion of our conversation:

    "Are we suppose to talk in this bar?"
    "...Yes, we are... it's a bar where you go with friends..so yeah"
    "Well then why is the band so loud? It's impossible to hold a conversation. Why would people come here to talk?"
    "...Because people love the music and it's suppose to set a mood to get people having fun and talking"
    "Well, when we go to parties at houses the music isn't this loud..."
    Heh, I do that, too. Really, how are you supposed to talk?

    Or was it not really that loud?

    Agreed. I am learning that it is I vs. E. I love introverts in a relationship but not as a friendship (eugh, that sounds weird).
    Yeah, it sounds weird, but I think it ultimately makes sense. Introverts are often very devoted partners who are really sweet about their alone time with the SO. In social situations where they are expected to act like friends, sometimes the introverted partner becomes an anchor. The same thing can apply in a relationship with two introverts, when they're hanging out with one person's friends or family.

    oh gosh, why would he be trying to punish me??? I always thought ISTJs were just so kind and unemotional and manipulative....
    It's not your fault! But it's possible that he's being passive-aggressive, making you so unhappy in these situations that you won't want to do them any more. If he feels socially inadequate, he may be trying to bring you down to his level. If he is trying to punish you somehow -- and he might not be -- it's about his hangups, not anything you did wrong.

    Am I being a jerk for not appreciating him trying to come out???
    No!! You're not forcing him to do anything, and if he's trying to make a martyr thing where he's making this big sacrifice for you, it's stupid, because it doesn't please anyone. Obviously we've only gotten your side of the story, but it really doesn't sound like you've done anything wrong. Your BF has been kind of a dick.

    Doesn't that seem like a punishment, like I am punishing him or something?
    Is it punishment to make someone stop doing something that makes them miserable?

    Tell him you're going out, you hope he has a good time while you're gone, and you'll tell him all about it when you get back. Kiss him goodbye, have a blast, and tell him you missed/thought about him while you were out. Come back sober! If he starts asking to come with you, of course you'll say yes. But he shouldn't be doing things he doesn't want to, and it doesn't sound like you should go out of your way to invite him. BTW, how do your friends feel about him?

    You could also try to arrange other activities, movie nights or small parties (under 10 people!) and stuff where he can hang out with you and your friends in a different environment.

  10. #30
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    Me But hes not impressing me when he acts the way he does in those situations :steam:
    Well, maybe you could help him by softly pointing this out. Does he have a chance anyway?

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