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  1. #41
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post


    I know you said you have tried to stand up to her, but I'm not convinced that you were as direct as is necessary with INTJ's. A sledgehammer, I find, is usually necessary with these guys...

    I've had an ISFJ try to stand up to me once, and I didn't even recognise that this was what she was doing, until someone else told me. It looked to me like she was terrified to just hit that ball over the net and put it in my court, almost like she was hinting to me to give her my PERMISSION to do it while I just stood there watching her bouncing it around her side of the court, if you will; she seemed very vague. It left me feeling a little confused as to what she was actually trying to achieve, and my impression was "well, if it's not important enough for her to say it like she means it, it's probably nothing to worry about".

    Whack it over, I say. See what they do with it. But keep whacking it right over. NT's tend to be quite good at sending it back, but you've gotta keep the focus on the fact that you're talking about THEM being rude to YOU, so THEY are the ones who need to explain and apologise, not you. Don't let them turn it into an abstract/academic debate about whether people "in general" should do this or do that or what they usually do or whatever, so it becomes about you having to explain and defend your perception.
    .

    I agree with all of these comments with one slight change. Rather than you talking about them being rude to you, I think it may be more helpful to communicate how what they said made you feel. It is a way of communicating the point, directly, without criticizing. They will figure out themselves that they were rude - I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I have stood up to her, in a non directive and confrontational way. I explained to her, more or less, in a calm manner that Different stokes apply to different people. People have different strengths and weaknesses. And that she can't expect me to be "intelligent" and "creative" as her because I have a different personality and assets. However, she doesn't seem to understand that, and continues with the behavior.
    My guess is that you are intelligent in different ways and that your friend may recognize that. I wouldn't diminish yourself like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    I think of all types, INTJs are MOST oblivious to how their actions affect people. None of my INTJ friends even notice if i scowl at them or roll my eyes at something they say. That is generally the nature of inferior Se.

    When my ISFJ mom "confronts" me, I don't even realize it is happening until my sister tells me later and I become entirely confused.

    As far as being called simple and boring, my NTJ friends and I call each other worse things on a daily basis, in jest.
    I think some of this depends on the maturity of the INTJ. When young, they are quite oblivious - sledgehammer comment is probably accurate. When they get older, N serves as an approximate substitute for F, and they can be quite sensitive, even overly sensitive to the reactions of others. This all being said, it can be extremely difficult to read an ISFJ because they are not particularly demonstrative when upset about something and tend to withdraw and keep busy with a lot of activities so you don't even see it. It is true that NTJ's are quite comfortable with the "poking fun" type of banter described. They don't understand until they gain enough experience that this is not an appropriate way to communicate with a lot of people.

  2. #42
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    "Boring" is a completely subjective evaluation. That opinion is neither rational or objective by its nature. Apparently those activities are boring for herself, but that is irrelevant when discussing someone else's preferences. It is irrational to project personal desire and preferences onto someone else for no other reason than that one's ability to perceive ends at the outer walls of their internal ego.

    I can see possibilities into why she dumps on you, and some of these possibilities are not entirely flattering for your friend. There is something that I discovered about people after years of observation. In many cases people will dump onto others whatever is inside them. The kinds of feelings and thoughts they actively trigger in others is a direct reflection of their own internal experience. Determining this is not an exact process because each person overlays this with their own emotional framework, but for issues as direct and obvious as telling someone they are boring and making them feel insignificant, it strongly suggests that those feelings are part of her inner world either consciously or subconsciously. People who are skilled at instilling certain feelings are demonstrating expertise as it. How would a person gain expertise at the feeling of insignificance? Possibly by experiencing it on a daily basis. What is the rational reason to instill such a feeling in someone else? How could it possibly matter if someone chose a "boring" job or whatever? There has to be some motivation and that is typically to make oneself feel less boring. This implies that feeling boring is the underlying motivation to make others feel that it is their shortcoming instead. She sounds incredibly insecure and tending towards overcompensation.

    Life is a bit of a struggle for most people, and it is often helpful to surround oneself with those who can be a source of strength to get through it. And when it is not a struggle, why not spend time with people who make you happy?
    Ok, this really made me think. Could this be a case of projection or insecurity? There is a lot of wisdom here. It could be. I don't know though. I keep thinking about the word "simple". I don't think the INTJ would ever harbor insecurities about being "simple", though they may dump on someone else generally because they are trying to make themselves feel better. It could also be that the INTJ is trying to push the ISFJ to realize their full potential - however inept these efforts may be. The whole thing reminds me of the newly born Avatar, who like the INTJ, steps on things, breaks glass, knocks things over, and is oblivious.

  3. #43
    Junior Member gracefully's Avatar
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    Hello everyone, thank you so much for your comments. After much thought and self-reflection I have decided to confront her soon, with the aim of repairing our friendship.

    How did I come to this conclusion? I thought about all the good times and laughs we had. The time and effort I have invested in the relationship would go to waste if I ended it. Someone made a comment that friendship is also about learning from each other, and that striked something in me. Maybe that the reason we became friends is for me to help her develop her feeling side more?

    I was a bit upset when I wrote the entry--and now I've calmed down a whole lot and become more clear-headed. With that in mind, I realized that no friendship is perfect, forgiveness required and a bit of understanding on my part.

    I admit that I am risk averse --I tend to just run away, sweep things under the rug, pretend it did not hurt me, even my expression reveals nothing. I know this is something I have to improve upon and overcome.

    Over the years, with my friendship with her, I feel as though I've become more thick skinned and less sensitive, so in a way, her somewhat critical nature has taught me some good things, and now it has in some ironic way, forced me to stand up for myself.

    INTJ and ISFJ friendship--it is definitely different. Sometimes I feel as though she is an enigma to me, but at the same time, I feel a mutual respect between us that has been forged throughout the years. Despite her critical comments, she had told me that I was one of the nicest and kindest person she has met, and I know she values my input on the important things in her life.

    I am not entirely bought that her criticism was constructive, however, i will tell her honestly again how I felt about it and give her one last chance. Her reaction and future actions will ultimately determine the course of our friendship.
    Last edited by gracefully; 01-21-2010 at 10:14 PM. Reason: added more details

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I am not entirely bought that her criticism was constructive, however, i will tell her honestly again how I felt about it and give her one last chance. Her reaction and future actions will ultimately determine the course of our friendship.
    I don't think a single ultimatum would accomplish your goal. Remember that she may be quite oblivious. You need to clearly let her know that your feelings has been hurt each time she transgresses. Eventually she will be more in tune with your level of sensitivity and behave accordingly.

    On the other hand, it is possible that she simply doesn't care. In that case, you will not be left wondering whether you made the right decision to cut her out of your life.

  5. #45
    Senior Member FeatheredFrenzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I was a bit upset when I wrote the entry--and now I've calmed down a whole lot and become more clear-headed. With that in mind, I realized that no friendship is perfect, forgiveness required and a bit of understanding on my part.

    I admit that I am risk averse --I tend to just run away, sweep things under the rug, pretend it did not hurt me, even my expression reveals nothing. I know this is something I have to improve upon and overcome.

    Over the years, with my friendship with her, I feel as though I've become more thick skinned and less sensitive, so in a way, her somewhat critical nature has taught me some good things, and now it has in some ironic way, forced me to stand up for myself.

    INTJ and ISFJ friendship--it is definitely different. Sometimes I feel as though she is an enigma to me, but at the same time, I feel a mutual respect between us that has been forged throughout the years. Despite her critical comments, she had told me that I was one of the nicest and kindest person she has met, and I know she values my input on the important things in her life.

    I am not entirely bought that her criticism was constructive, however, i will tell her honestly again how I felt about it and give her one last chance. Her reaction and future actions will ultimately determine the course of our friendship.
    When you confront her, I hope it's with the knowledge in mind that you've already given her enough understanding. Now is no longer the time to be understanding and forgiving. Being understanding about this is done and over with. This isn't about you taking yet another step back, ever inventing new ways to accommodate her misbehaviors. It's about taking a recklessly firm stand, risking the loss of the relationship.

    Sometimes a firm, harsh stand is the only thing certain people can hear. They don't seem to acknowledge anything else.

    What she did to upset you like that was a big deal. I think overwhelming anger comes to the surface when there's a moment of clarity about how unjustly you are being treated.

    As people of our type, we live in emotional waters. So it's all the more important to protect ourselves from individuals who have a way of polluting it. As an ISFJ, I think it's a life-long responsibility we have towards ourselves.

    You're doing a very brave thing by walking back into a painful situation that you ultimately cannot control. I hope things work out in your favor whatever that will mean.

  6. #46
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that "tell them how it makes you feel" rather than "tell them that they're being rude and insensitive" is the best advice... IME it doesn't always work with T's... precisely because being a T, by definition, means that by default you tend to ignore your own feelings or consider them of little consequence, and therefore inadvertently assume that everyone else does, or should do, the same.

    I remember when I was younger, when people used to say "you made me feel XYZ", I might've mouthed the word "sorry" because I knew it was expected, but really, inside, I was thinking "so what? your feelings are your problem, why should the world have to change according to your feelings? deal with it!" and if anything it had the effect of my making a policy of NOT tailoring the things I did and said according to their feelings, figuring that they "had to learn". I resented the idea that it was automatically MY behaviour that had to change, rather than THEM learning to be less sensitive. Especially if I knew I didn't truly mean any harm, and had been joking or just making casual observations without any actual intent to hurt anyone (but simultaneously, not explicit intent NOT to either).

    Of course I don't think like that any more, but that's been a learning curve and I think it's one for many young T types

    However, if I was told "you are being rude and insensitive", somehow that connected with me better, I'm not quite sure how. For some reason, I still to this day sometimes need the connection making for me by someone else in plain English: doing stuff that makes other people feel bad is insensitive. Saying things that make them feel small in front of others is rude. Somehow, stopping doing it so I won't be an insensitive or rude person is a bigger motivator than stopping doing it PURELY because it makes them feel bad. Maybe being able to respect myself is a higher priority for me than making other people feel good.

    It's hard to explain, but however much I acknowledge that it's probably a bit screwy, I have to confess it's still the case. And I know it's similar with many other T types I know.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  7. #47
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    I'm not sure that "tell them how it makes you feel" rather than "tell them that they're being rude and insensitive" is the best advice... IME it doesn't always work with T's... precisely because being a T, by definition, means that by default you tend to ignore your own feelings or consider them of little consequence, and therefore inadvertently assume that everyone else does, or should do, the same.

    I remember when I was younger, when people used to say "you made me feel XYZ", I might've mouthed the word "sorry" because I knew it was expected, but really, inside, I was thinking "so what? your feelings are your problem, why should the world have to change according to your feelings? deal with it!" and if anything it had the effect of my making a policy of NOT tailoring the things I did and said according to their feelings, figuring that they "had to learn". I resented the idea that it was automatically MY behaviour that had to change, rather than THEM learning to be less sensitive. Especially if I knew I didn't truly mean any harm, and had been joking or just making casual observations without any actual intent to hurt anyone (but simultaneously, not explicit intent NOT to either).

    Of course I don't think like that any more, but that's been a learning curve and I think it's one for many young T types

    However, if I was told "you are being rude and insensitive", somehow that connected with me better, I'm not quite sure how. For some reason, I still to this day sometimes need the connection making for me by someone else in plain English: doing stuff that makes other people feel bad is insensitive. Saying things that make them feel small in front of others is rude. Somehow, stopping doing it so I won't be an insensitive or rude person is a bigger motivator than stopping doing it PURELY because it makes them feel bad. Maybe being able to respect myself is a higher priority for me than making other people feel good. It's hard to explain, but however much I acknowledge that it's probably a bit screwy, I have to confess it's still the case.
    I assume from this explanation that you're an xxTP type (which prefers Fe over Fi.)

    You respond better to "You are being rude" than to "You make me feel bad" because the former is an Fe criticism and the latter is an Fi one.

    "You are being rude" appeals to Fe because it explains directly and concisely that you are violating an external standard of morality by doing something that most others would see as inappropriate. Fe defines morality according to widely applicable standards that one's social or cultural group would agree upon.

    "You are making me feel bad" would appeal more to Fi because it explains how that person's own individual feelings are being hurt. But as an Fe user, you don't really care about appeasing each person's individual feelings because your sense of ethics comes from an external standard. You don't respond well to Fi's criticism that you're making the person feel bad because, from the Ti+Fe perspective, as long as you're being internally consistent and following an objective external standard of ethics, whether or not it makes one person feel bad is not your problem.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #48
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I assume from this explanation that you're an xxTP type (which prefers Fe over Fi.)

    You respond better to "You are being rude" than to "You make me feel bad" because the former is an Fe criticism and the latter is an Fi one.

    "You are being rude" appeals to Fe because it explains directly and concisely that you are violating an external standard of morality by doing something that most others would see as inappropriate. Fe defines morality according to widely applicable standards that one's social or cultural group would agree upon.

    "You are making me feel bad" would appeal more to Fi because it explains how that person's own individual feelings are being hurt. But as an Fe user, you don't really care about appeasing each person's individual feelings because your sense of ethics comes from an external standard. You don't respond well to Fi's criticism that you're making the person feel bad because, from the Ti+Fe perspective, as long as you're being internally consistent and following an objective external standard of ethics, whether or not it makes one person feel bad is not your problem.
    Exactly! Very well put, thank you!

    And yeah, ENTP here (look at the sig)
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  9. #49
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I assume from this explanation that you're an xxTP type (which prefers Fe over Fi.)

    You respond better to "You are being rude" than to "You make me feel bad" because the former is an Fe criticism and the latter is an Fi one.

    "You are being rude" appeals to Fe because it explains directly and concisely that you are violating an external standard of morality by doing something that most others would see as inappropriate. Fe defines morality according to widely applicable standards that one's social or cultural group would agree upon.

    "You are making me feel bad" would appeal more to Fi because it explains how that person's own individual feelings are being hurt. But as an Fe user, you don't really care about appeasing each person's individual feelings because your sense of ethics comes from an external standard. You don't respond well to Fi's criticism that you're making the person feel bad because, from the Ti+Fe perspective, as long as you're being internally consistent and following an objective external standard of ethics, whether or not it makes one person feel bad is not your problem.
    So then the "you are making me feel bad" would work better with an INTJ because they would prefer Fi, right? I know if I were the person getting the feedback and you told me I was rude and thoughtless, I may get defensive. I may think that is your opinion. If you told me how you felt however, that is a fact, which I could not deny or argue with. If it was my friend, I would be motivated to deal with it.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    It seems all a little pointless since in this Feelers mind.

    "You are being rude and insensitive" is connected to "You are making me feel bad" for the obvious reasons that things are deemed inappropriate because they have a negative impact on certain individuals. If the individual didn't care, they would not call you up for being rude.

    It doesn't really make much sense to respond differently to an Fi vs Fe based message when they are both interconnected.

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