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  1. #31
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Wow, what was the context of being called "simple" and "boring"? I am trying to consider a scenario where I would not be immediately very insulted and end the conversation. It's a big difference if someone calls your outfit "boring" or tells you that you have "simple needs" to telling someone they are "boring" (period) and "simple" (period).

    I think more important than the relationship with the INTJ here is the principle - don't let anyone make you feel like crap. You do NOT have to put up with it. And often the simplest thing - just speaking up and saying it out loud - makes a world of difference. This is an extremely important life lesson to learn now. There will be many more people like the INTJ in your life.

    If the relationship ends, it ends, but you owe it yourself and even to her to explain yourself. At least give her a chance.

    But for sure, tell her how insulting her comments are to you and more importantly, how you feel she looks down upon you and why. Tell her you don't need her to agree with your life choices but you need to be treated with respect. You can also put a little bite into it and say how ironic you think it is that an INTJ (her) would call someone else boring. Explain to her that there are many faults of hers that you could point out, unsolicitied, but you don't because of X, Y, Z reasons and that is why you take offense when she does it to you, in the way that she does.

    I think from that point once you tell her how you feel it will all be about how good you both are at communicating. If she's willing and able, she might tell you that she does respect you and she is just talking to you like she talks to "everyone else". A good response here is that you are *not* "everyone else" and that you've invested enough in each other to be worth a little more effort. Etc.

    Honestly, I've seen similar confrontations/conversations go either way, to an extreme. So much is out of your hands and so much relies on both of your comfort levels with confrontation. So I wouldn't worry too much past the part where you say your piece. The goal here is to get it all off your chest (in a constructive way) and put the ball in her court. That should be your focus.

    At the very least, it will be a good exercise and opportunity for you.

    Tell us how it goes!

    Very sound advice. One little thing I'd switch up, if it were me:
    Tell her you don't need her to agree with your life choices but you need to be treated with respect.
    I wouldn't say I need respect, I'd say that I demand it as a cornerstone of a friendship.

    Be forceful in having your peace, being heard...not so much to patch up the friendship, but, for your own peace of mind, that you were truly heard. Then, it's up to her, as CzeCze points out, how she takes in your feelings and your positions, and actions she takes to rectify it.

  2. #32
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I have been friends with an INTJ for over five years now.I am thinking of breaking off my friendship with her because of the way she treats me. I am really sick of the way she looks down at me. She even told me to my face that I am "simple" and "boring."I tried to let comments like this slide, but she kept doing it again

    After graduating from college, I applied to a secretarial job and she looked down on me again, insinuating how I can enjoy doing routine jobs, which to her is so boring. In contrast, I have stayed supportive of her career 100%.

    I understand that others might interpret her as being rational and objective (as an INTJ)--however how can I not feel affected when she is attacking my person?

    I also understand that she is a Thinker and Intuitive, so she can see possiblities about the future and she is more confident in her abilities. But, the way she makes me feel like I am inferior and second class citizen.

    I have been a good friend to her, always there when she needs me and been supportive no matter what. . Even when we go out, I let her lead as she wants to.

    I have to draw the line. I am planning on ending this friendship this year, and hopefully this is the right choice. I don't like being used or being treated as doormats.
    This story makes me shudder.

    My own experience:

    My best friend for like over 2 decades is an ISFJ. She came from a very tough background that really left her in pieces that she is still working out. I spent so much of my life being there for her, and it was never reciprocated. She was always suffering internally about this or that, and I would spend hours talking to her about it or partying with her or whatever she needed to cope. I never once came to her with my problems because she would just giggle nervously and say "I don't know what to say" or "oh, that sucks". So as you can tell, over the years it started to wear a bit thin on me. But I was very loyal to her and her friendship and just accepted that she would never be that kind of friend to me.

    So imagine my surprise when one day I get an email saying she wanted to end our friendship. She accused me of being mean to her and being domineering and worse. I sat in shock for so long - not because she didn't want to be friends but because her accusations were so out of left field. She was always complaining about being broke, so I would suggest better jobs that she could be good at that pay better, and apparently to her that meant that I thought her career choice was inferior.

    I had also mentioned the word "simple" in relation to a job that I had gotten that was similar to a job she had. I said it was simple, stress free and gave me time to write my thesis on the job. But because the job was similar to hers, that meant that I was calling her "simple". No, that particular job - not the entire industry or profession - was simple.

    She would call me and constantly cry about any man that would break her heart. Now, throughout high school, I would encourage her to date other guys. As we got older she would exhibit really unhealthy patterns (considering her past), so I would encourage her to spend more time alone to figure out what she wanted from life. Apparently to her, that meant I was telling her that she was an undesirable partner for a man and I was cutting down her self esteem.

    She went on and on with further things like that. It was amazing to me to get 20 years of everything I've ever done wrong in an email - not even a phone call.

    Why she placed all of her self esteem in my words was so foreign to me. Why she only chose to see the negative after everything we had been through together was incomprehensible. Why she judged me so harshly instead of giving me the same respect I gave her - namely seeing me as a flawed human being who doesn't have all the answers - is something I will never understand. Why she never spoke up when something bothered her...

    Truth be told, I am very happy that she ended this friendship. Knowing that someone harbored resentful feelings towards me for years while I literally sacrificed and cared so much makes me angry. That is the only part that bugs me - the lying to my face over such a long period of time. I will never get over that betrayal. Many years later when tragedy struck, she expressed a strong desire to reconnect with me - but I can no longer look her in the eye because I have absolutely no respect for her and how she handled this situation.

    The thing is, when most NTs hear a problem, our first instinct is to find a solution. That's our way of helping. My solution finding was intolerable to her because she wanted me to console her. And apparently, her "oh, that sucks" was her way of commiserating with me - when what I needed was tangible solutions. So really, neither of us took the time to really get to know what the other person needed or expected. We just gave the solutions that we would have liked to have received from each other.

    I have no idea how much like your INTJ friend I am, but if she's anything like me, speak up if something bothers you. She is probably clueless to all these things that you find torturous. And keep in mind that in life, there is not one problem that can't be fixed if you are willing to make the effort. Good luck.

  3. #33
    Junior Member TheGolfCourse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeatheredFrenzy View Post
    Do you guys think this is a natural part of friendship? (honest question)

    I normally just EXPECT respect and decency. Is that unrealistic? I don't believe in having to police people.
    Well in my own ideal situation both respect and decency exist between friends and that's the cause with most of my pals. I'm not sure about realistic but I do what I want, I know that people have ideas of friendship that have nothing to do with honesty. It's not for me to say the quality of their friendship and I don't really care (unless they're someone I like, then I just somberly mull over the situation for a while.)

    I do get what you're saying though, and really, with some people it's like, are you serious? Some people missed the memo on humanity. =/

    I would suggest against changing yourself lest you create more opportunity to attract those who don't think much of respect/decency.

    About the bolded parts of my post that you mentioned, I put that there because it often occurs that INTJs intimidate others in a way where those other people don't speak their mind to them, and that is sometimes a part of INTJs living their life completely by their own judgments of their environment and not necessarily with much concern for others.
    Last edited by TheGolfCourse; 01-18-2010 at 05:57 AM. Reason: adding stuff
    The greatest revenge is living well.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Bri's Avatar
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    You don't have to be friends with everyone. I imagine the INTJ will pout for a while, but ultimately it will probably have a positive impact on her life to lose your friendship because it'll cause her to do some self-reflection on how she treats people.

  5. #35
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Jeno that you should take a long look at the relationship before doing anything rash. You probably weren't just sacrificing of yourself all those years just to be there for her, people stay around other people because they get something from it. Even if was for the feeling that you were "being there for her" you were enjoying that feeling and not doing anything to even out the relationship.

    Take time and think about why you hung around her all those years, you were getting something out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I have been a good friend to her, always there when she needs me and been supportive no matter what. . Even when we go out, I let her lead as she wants to.
    This quote is part of what makes me think you need to take time to look at how you have been dealing with the friendship.

    You should not stay in an unhealthy relationship so absolutely get out of it if it is.

  6. #36
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'd actually say that unleashing all of your pent up aggression by letting loose on her might do some good... yeah, I know, it's probably against your nature, but that's where you have the advantage! I once witnessed an INFP friend let loose on an ENTJ... it was terrifying because it was unlike anything we'd ever expected from her- she was normally so gentle- and the ENTJ actually LISTENED because it was so unexpected!

    There's no use in being in a friendship that doesn't leave you feeling happy though- that's what friends are all about- making your life MORE pleasant! Just get her side of things first though... she could have good intentions and not realize how you're interpreting the things that she says. I know I can be a bit oblivious at times
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #37
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I have been friends with an INTJ for over five years now.I am thinking of breaking off my friendship with her because of the way she treats me. I am really sick of the way she looks down at me. She even told me to my face that I am "simple" and "boring."I tried to let comments like this slide, but she kept doing it again

    After graduating from college, I applied to a secretarial job and she looked down on me again, insinuating how I can enjoy doing routine jobs, which to her is so boring. In contrast, I have stayed supportive of her career 100%.

    I understand that others might interpret her as being rational and objective (as an INTJ)--however how can I not feel affected when she is attacking my person?
    "Boring" is a completely subjective evaluation. That opinion is neither rational or objective by its nature. Apparently those activities are boring for herself, but that is irrelevant when discussing someone else's preferences. It is irrational to project personal desire and preferences onto someone else for no other reason than that one's ability to perceive ends at the outer walls of their internal ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I also understand that she is a Thinker and Intuitive, so she can see possiblities about the future and she is more confident in her abilities. But, the way she makes me feel like I am inferior and second class citizen.
    I can see possibilities into why she dumps on you, and some of these possibilities are not entirely flattering for your friend. There is something that I discovered about people after years of observation. In many cases people will dump onto others whatever is inside them. The kinds of feelings and thoughts they actively trigger in others is a direct reflection of their own internal experience. Determining this is not an exact process because each person overlays this with their own emotional framework, but for issues as direct and obvious as telling someone they are boring and making them feel insignificant, it strongly suggests that those feelings are part of her inner world either consciously or subconsciously. People who are skilled at instilling certain feelings are demonstrating expertise as it. How would a person gain expertise at the feeling of insignificance? Possibly by experiencing it on a daily basis. What is the rational reason to instill such a feeling in someone else? How could it possibly matter if someone chose a "boring" job or whatever? There has to be some motivation and that is typically to make oneself feel less boring. This implies that feeling boring is the underlying motivation to make others feel that it is their shortcoming instead. She sounds incredibly insecure and tending towards overcompensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by gracefully View Post
    I have been a good friend to her, always there when she needs me and been supportive no matter what. . Even when we go out, I let her lead as she wants to.

    I have to draw the line. I am planning on ending this friendship this year, and hopefully this is the right choice. I don't like being used or being treated as doormats.
    Life is a bit of a struggle for most people, and it is often helpful to surround oneself with those who can be a source of strength to get through it. And when it is not a struggle, why not spend time with people who make you happy?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #38
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Just avoid her. If she's treating you badly and you don't like it, just avoid her - because you don't have to be friends with her. I don't suggest rubbing it in her face, that's a bad idea.

  9. #39
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post

    There's no use in being in a friendship that doesn't leave you feeling happy though- that's what friends are all about- making your life MORE pleasant!
    A word of caution... this way of thinking can be quite dangerous, as it can lead by extension to "anyone who doesn't make me feel great all the time isn't my friend"... friends are also there to help each other grow, to learn from each other and develop as individuals exactly through times like these.

    If you approach a friendship with the mentality that they're supposed to automatically know what not to do, all your personal aversions and things you get offended by (things that other friends of theirs might truly not mind and even welcome), you're setting them and yourself up for failure right from the start.

    Just get her side of things first though... she could have good intentions and not realize how you're interpreting the things that she says. I know I can be a bit oblivious at times
    I'll go with that though. She might not have positive OR negative intentions. It's well within the scope of NT behaviour generally to not have ANY intentions as such, except to voice an observation which you (often wrongly) consider neutral/objective, perhaps even constructive. Often no judgement is meant on the part of the INTJ... or other NT's.

    I've had it happen with me before where I've said to somebody "you're quite easily taken in by the fronts people put on", in the context of a conversation where he was wondering if he was being ripped off his inheritance... and he's taken it as a judgement, like I was criticising him. I wasn't - if that quality made me think less of him, would I have been his close friend for the last ten years??! *I* didn't mean anything bad by it, to *me* it was a neutral observation, made by way of explaining why he needed to be cautious in this situation and perhaps trust perceptions of people he trusts and who care about him. But he took it as a criticism of his whole personality, read it as though I had said and meant "you're stupid", and thought I didn't respect him because of this, which was totally false.

    It can often happen that when a person uses an adjective it can have totally different connotations in their mind depending on the context, often completely different to whatever meaning we ourselves give it. It's important to establish that judgement/criticism/belittling was indeed intended, before
    taking offence.

    For the future, it'd be a good idea to remember that communication is vital, and you shouldn't leave it til it reaches crisis point, but tackle it head on whenever it arises. If the INTJ says "you're a person of simple tastes" and you don't like that, you should say RIGHT THERE AND THEN, something like "Hey! ixnay on the atronisingpay!" or something like that. Then the INTJ files the experience away: "ISFJ doesn't like the word "simple" used in connection with her", and avoids it in future. Surely, however much you hate even such mild confrontations as this, it's got to be better than just brooding over it as it happens over and over, until crisis point?
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  10. #40
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    :crying:
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