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  1. #1
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Default SJs (mainly ISxJs) and stereotypes

    I read about the function order on this site: ISTJ Profile

    and it says that the ISTJs, with their inferior Ne, tend to give in to stereotypes...

    Extraverted Intuition
    The Ne function of an ISTJ does not serve her very well. It needs a lot of help. She was surprised, for example, to find that someone she had talked with only by phone had red hair, because she "didn't usually like" people with red hair! This inferior Ne seems to be a major source of, and a natural breeding ground for, stereotypes. Failure of the banking system is but one bogeyman which arises from the fear which feeds on the ISTJ's mistrust of real world possibilities. The shadow inhabiting the inferior Ne strikes at the precious forms and standards in the heart of the dominant Si function.
    First of all, I want to say that I disagree in large part with this website's definition of Dominant Introverted Sensing for ISTJs. But what do you think of the inferior Ne as a source of stereotypes? Do you SJs (mainly ISxJs) hold stereotypes, and if so, is it because of inferior Ne? What do you think?

    (Interestingly enough, it gives a completely different definition for Inferior Ne in ISFJs.)

  2. #2
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Right now, I am of the opinion that Ne is the same for all as long as it's in the same position. In other words, ISFJ's share the same Ne as ISTJ's. The thing is, naturally, your other functions are going to influence Ne in different ways. If you look at it as a single entity, it's consistently the same, but if you look at it intuitively, taking into account the other functions, it achieves the same ends for different purposes. ISFJ's might use Ne to serve their need to identify with a group (Fe) if that group has proven to use Ne tendencies. ISTJ's might use it to become more efficient at their jobs if their Te deems it necessary to get the job done. There's also the difference between Fi and Ti in tertiary for those types. Anyway, the phone example just seems like a very immature type who didn't care very much to expand her perspective at all. Most ISxJ's don't actually like living inside a box.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    First of all, I want to say that I disagree in large part with this website's definition of Dominant Introverted Sensing for ISTJs. But what do you think of the inferior Ne as a source of stereotypes? Do you SJs (mainly ISxJs) hold stereotypes, and if so, is it because of inferior Ne? What do you think?
    The main place where I see bad N in ISxJ is when they get off the beaten path -- into a situation they cannot map anything from their past into or feel ill-equipped to handle -- and then suddenly it seems like their minds start racing, they start to have WILD fears about what COULD go wrong or what actually is going wrong. There is little weighting of possibilities, and usually they go right for worst-case scenario. The slippery-slope scenario seems to be predominate, in that if you allow for some ambiguity/give here, you can expect suddenly everything to go completely wrong. The whole world is expected to crash in.

    This just seems to me to be a tendency of the type. N's have practiced their N far more and so seem to be better "weight" the possibilities in new situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    Most ISxJ's don't actually like living inside a box.
    Really? Literally all the ISFJs I have known in my life have always preferred knowing the parameters of the situation and dealing with things they already know how to do, where there are no surprises. (That's how I define "box living", maybe you are defining it differently.) This includes ISFJs from the Boomer and Gen X generations.

    What is your experience, being ISFJ?
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  4. #4
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The main place where I see bad N in ISxJ is when they get off the beaten path -- into a situation they cannot map anything from their past into or feel ill-equipped to handle -- and then suddenly it seems like their minds start racing, they start to have WILD fears about what COULD go wrong or what actually is going wrong. There is little weighting of possibilities, and usually they go right for worst-case scenario. The slippery-slope scenario seems to be predominate, in that if you allow for some ambiguity/give here, you can expect suddenly everything to go completely wrong. The whole world is expected to crash in.

    This just seems to me to be a tendency of the type. N's have practiced their N far more and so seem to be better "weight" the possibilities in new situations.



    Really? Literally all the ISFJs I have known in my life have always preferred knowing the parameters of the situation and dealing with things they already know how to do, where there are no surprises. (That's how I define "box living", maybe you are defining it differently.) This includes ISFJs from the Boomer and Gen X generations.

    What is your experience, being ISFJ?
    From what I can tell all types get jittery when things are not going the way they like/want. All types are negative about it too when it happens. I don't think ISFJ are any more prone to acting this way than other types. It's just that ISFJs will often choose to follow a prescribed path that is more traditionally accepted. I dont see ISxJ's acting more rigid in what they want than the so-called "open-minded" NPs in their desire to make everyone be so "open-minded". They are just different sides to the same coin to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The main place where I see bad N in ISxJ is when they get off the beaten path -- into a situation they cannot map anything from their past into or feel ill-equipped to handle -- and then suddenly it seems like their minds start racing, they start to have WILD fears about what COULD go wrong or what actually is going wrong. There is little weighting of possibilities, and usually they go right for worst-case scenario. The slippery-slope scenario seems to be predominate, in that if you allow for some ambiguity/give here, you can expect suddenly everything to go completely wrong. The whole world is expected to crash in.
    I identify with this. I understand that even the beaten paths sometimes carries unexpected surprises and I can handle them, but I can't seem to be confident that I'll be able to handle surprises off the beaten path.

    I actually have no idea how to weight those possibilities until recently. But next time this happens, I am going to go through a process of estimating the probability and severity of those items going wrong.



    Have I ever mention that I recently fell in love with frameworks?

    This is useful to the ISTJ, but I don't think this is going to help the ISFJ.

  6. #6
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The main place where I see bad N in ISxJ is when they get off the beaten path -- into a situation they cannot map anything from their past into or feel ill-equipped to handle -- and then suddenly it seems like their minds start racing, they start to have WILD fears about what COULD go wrong or what actually is going wrong. There is little weighting of possibilities, and usually they go right for worst-case scenario. The slippery-slope scenario seems to be predominate, in that if you allow for some ambiguity/give here, you can expect suddenly everything to go completely wrong. The whole world is expected to crash in.

    This just seems to me to be a tendency of the type. N's have practiced their N far more and so seem to be better "weight" the possibilities in new situations.
    I agree, this is stemming from inferior Ne - to sometimes automatically assume worst-case scenarios... I do this very often. But does this inferior Ne also lead to forming stereotypes? I'm not so sure about that, though I do tend to label/stereotype once in a way, but hey... all people do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
    I identify with this. I understand that even the beaten paths sometimes carries unexpected surprises and I can handle them, but I can't seem to be confident that I'll be able to handle surprises off the beaten path.

    I actually have no idea how to weight those possibilities until recently. But next time this happens, I am going to go through a process of estimating the probability and severity of those items going wrong.

    That is really a great graph. Helps map it out easily in a visual format.

  7. #7
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    I agree, this is stemming from inferior Ne - to sometimes automatically assume worst-case scenarios... I do this very often. But does this inferior Ne also lead to forming stereotypes? I'm not so sure about that, though I do tend to label/stereotype once in a way, but hey... all people do.
    I have an ISFJ coworker (although she comes across as very ISTJ in her work persona) who has similar reactions to change. When I bring up a potential change to our programming framework, I always brace myself for her Ne to generate all the worst case scenarios that might result from making the change.

    I find if I go back and talk to her again a day or two later, she usually has a more grounded critique. Since she's far more naturally detail oriented than I am, her feedback is incredibly valuable at that point. I do have to weather initial reaction, though.

    We make a good team and she's one of my favorite coworkers. Still, she's not one to embrace change instantly.

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    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I have an ISFJ coworker (although she comes across as very ISTJ in her work persona) who has similar reactions to change. When I bring up a potential change to our programming framework, I always brace myself for her Ne to generate all the worst case scenarios that might result from making the change.

    I find if I go back and talk to her again a day or two later, she usually has a more grounded critique. Since she's far more naturally detail oriented than I am, her feedback is incredibly valuable at that point. I do have to weather initial reaction, though.

    We make a good team and she's one of my favorite coworkers. Still, she's not one to embrace change instantly.
    Yeah, I don't know about your ISFJ coworker, but with me - if someone presents an opportunity of change upon me, I would hesitate at first but if they present the benefits of the change to me, and if there are more significant pros than cons, then I'm all for the change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    Yeah, I don't know about your ISFJ coworker, but with me - if someone presents an opportunity of change upon me, I would hesitate at first but if they present the benefits of the change to me, and if there are more significant pros than cons, then I'm all for the change.
    I know with me I dont hesitate, but I do bring up the possible problems we face to make sure that people are aware of what we need to tackle. Its used to help others make the decision as I am up to tackle pretty much anything.

    In regard to the inferior Ne and stereotypes. I see how STJs live out of fear based on the details. 4 of these things appeared and if this last thing were to happen then all hell will break loose. But whats the possibility of that last thing happening? Take this into stereotypes and you have a huge number of things lining up and you cant predict what a person will do so you err on the side of fear. With another example its like its happened before so it will happen again, be prepared. Fear every lightning strike as since its hit someone in the past you are lucky if it doesnt hit you this next time.
    Im out, its been fun

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    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    It's interesting to read this thread because when I see fear of change it to me it divides more between old and young than SJ and vs. everyone else.

    I've seen older NPs at my job more reluctant to do things in a new way or change something than young SJs. Most people are satisfied with their own status quo no matter what their type is. Why is it confined to SJs?

    ETA: And doesn't this greatly depend on what the change is? Change can go in many directions and rarely is it neutral. Change just for change's sake is getting a new haircut or something ultimately trivial.

    For major life changes how can you tell the difference between wild and unfounded speculation and an honest assessment of likely consequences?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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