[ESTJ] ESTJ Boss

[INTPness]

I'm going to be working under an ESTJ boss for awhile. I've worked for one before and have several in my family, so I'm pretty familiar with ESTJ's. But, I'm struggling with this guy.

Let's start of by saying that he really needs me - or someone who can do what I do - if he were to "lose me", it would really cause a big void for several weeks until he could find a replacement. Because of this, he is being really nice to me and kind of watching his words. I see him talk down to other people and really rip into them at times. He's not a horrible guy, but he tends to micro-manage, be all up in everyone's stuff, and relentless (nothing gets by him and it annoys people). He's very efficient and gets stuff done (like ExTJ's do so well), but he can be a real jerk at times.

With me, I know that he thinks that certain things I do are not "efficient" - because they aren't the way he would do them. But, I work efficiently (INTP's are extremely efficient when we need to be/want to be - in fact, recognizing inefficiencies is probably what we do best). He really has nothing to worry about. I'm doing things as efficiently as they can be done. I sense sometimes that he wants to rip into me (I can see that he is frustrated and kind of wants to "go off" on me), but because he needs what I'm providing so desperately at this time, he holds his tongue.

I feel like he's testing me to see how far he can go with me. He wants to see if he can talk to me the same way he talks to others. He talks down and very blunt to certain people, and then I notice that others he doesn't talk to that way (because he knows it won't fly with certain people).

So, what can I do to:
1. Earn this guys respect? What do you guys respect in a worker?

2. Get him off my back? If he's hovering around me and watching me and probing and asking lots of questions, he's only hurting my performance. INTP's can't perform under that type of pressure. The best thing a boss can do for us is explain clearly what he expects out of us, train us if he wants it done a certain way, and then let us go do it. How can I convince him to take a step back, and let me go? Get out of my face and let me do what I'm paid to do (without pissing him off or being arrogant or getting in a heated argument)???

What should my strategy be here? I'm confused with this guy.

 

[Halla74]

(1) He might be incapable of respecting people beyond what he needs them for. In short, you might lose relevance to him, and therefore lose consideration for being treated with respect if he is a shallow userous motherfucker. Be careful. If he is cool, you don't need to worry about this, but if you don't know, then be careful...

(2) To get him off your back, be direct. Say "Look, I understand you want this to be done, but part of this work is creative, and it will take me some TIME and some PEACE AND QUIET to get from the conceptual stage we're at now, to being able to show you a preliminary work product. So, here's the outline of things now (Give him an outline, drop a picture or two in there, or a diagram, this will satisfy his NEED FOR STRUCTURE , even if temporarily)."

THEN, you must immediately ask him for the time you realistically need to finish the task. If you ask when he's warm and fuzzy after giving him the outline, he will most likely say yes. Then tell him you'll shoot him an email between now and the time you agree to check in with him to discuss things further.

Done deal. My Dad is an ESTJ retired Army Colonel. I know how to handle them. Good luck!

 

[Robert165]

yeah, i agree, what you do depends upon his overall personality (what he's like when he's not feeling rushed)

 

[highlander]

I had an ESTJ boss a little while back and he just kind of wore me out. If I had to do it over again, I'd do one thing - change my style of interaction with him. I'd be more prepared for meetings, be more on top of facts, more verbal and mimicking of his communication style, focus on more short term, tactical, bottom line issues, and have numbers - in my discussions with him. Outside of that, I'd do things the same.

 

[Eye-In-TiPi]

Wow. I'm in pretty much the same situation. Just be glad he will hold his tongue when talking to you. That will probably change with time. When he does rip into you, do not back down. Stand your ground if you are right, but admit when you are wrong. He'll lose respect for you if you back down and you'll get ripped into more often. Keep in mind that he has been kind enough to hold back on you and try to do the same when you stand up to him. If he's anything like my boss, he'll shut down the conversation when it starts to look like he's losing the argument. Sometimes it seems like my boss thinks that yelling his point makes it "righter." If you think your boss is pissed off about something he thinks is wrong, wait til he is logically proven to be the one in the wrong. My boss fumes with anger whenever I pick apart his illogic. I think the part he hates most is that I do it all very calmly and don't get angry about it - well, most of the time anyway.

 

[Halla74]

I had an ESTJ boss a little while back and he just kind of wore me out. If I had to do it over again, I'd do one thing - change my style of interaction with him. I'd be more prepared for meetings, be more on top of facts, more verbal and mimicking of his communication style, focus on more short term, tactical, bottom line issues, and have numbers - in my discussions with him. Outside of that, I'd do things the same.

Damn good advice. They love numbers. They wish they were naturally good at wielding them like rationals, but to ESTJs numbers are kind of like a "teddy bear" as in a representation of the control they wish to have, but which are not tangible, and therefore in need of representation via "facts."

Wow. I'm in pretty much the same situation. Just be glad he will hold his tongue when talking to you. That will probably change with time. When he does rip into you, do not back down. Stand your ground if you are right, but admit when you are wrong. He'll lose respect for you if you back down and you'll get ripped into more often. Keep in mind that he has been kind enough to hold back on you and try to do the same when you stand up to him. If he's anything like my boss, he'll shut down the conversation when it starts to look like he's losing the argument. Sometimes it seems like my boss thinks that yelling his point makes it "righter." If you think your boss is pissed off about something he thinks is wrong, wait til he is logically proven to be the one in the wrong. My boss fumes with anger whenever I pick apart his illogic. I think the part he hates most is that I do it all very calmly and don't get angry about it - well, most of the time anyway.

Hell yes! Do not ever back down, from anyone. Fuck it. If it's on, it's on. The worst that will happen is you end up in the ER.

I love your point about discombobulating them with coll headed logic. I watched my INTJ brother wield logic over my Dad's authoritarian ESTJ ways my whole childhood. It was hilarious.

 

[EJCC]

(1) He might be incapable of respecting people beyond what he needs them for. In short, you might lose relevance to him, and therefore lose consideration for being treated with respect if he is a shallow userous motherfucker. Be careful. If he is cool, you don't need to worry about this, but if you don't know, then be careful...

(2) To get him off your back, be direct. Say "Look, I understand you want this to be done, but part of this work is creative, and it will take me some TIME and some PEACE AND QUIET to get from the conceptual stage we're at now, to being able to show you a preliminary work product. So, here's the outline of things now (Give him an outline, drop a picture or two in there, or a diagram, this will satisfy his NEED FOR STRUCTURE , even if temporarily)."

THEN, you must immediately ask him for the time you realistically need to finish the task. If you ask when he's warm and fuzzy after giving him the outline, he will most likely say yes. Then tell him you'll shoot him an email between now and the time you agree to check in with him to discuss things further.

Done deal. My Dad is an ESTJ retired Army Colonel. I know how to handle them. Good luck!

I agree with this, especially the bolded part. To earn his respect and trust, you probably just need to repeat that process from Halla's #2 multiple times, until you've proven to him WITHOUT A DOUBT that your "unconventional methods" work. I have an ENTP friend who I sort of went through this process with, i.e. feeling the urge to "fix" her behavior at first, but then realizing that her end results are always good, so I should just leave her alone. Hopefully this will happen with your ESTJ boss.

 

[Fecal McAngry]

I'm going to be working under an ESTJ boss for awhile. I've worked for one before and have several in my family, so I'm pretty familiar with ESTJ's. But, I'm struggling with this guy.

Let's start of by saying that he really needs me - or someone who can do what I do - if he were to "lose me", it would really cause a big void for several weeks until he could find a replacement. Because of this, he is being really nice to me and kind of watching his words. I see him talk down to other people and really rip into them at times. He's not a horrible guy, but he tends to micro-manage, be all up in everyone's stuff, and relentless (nothing gets by him and it annoys people). He's very efficient and gets stuff done (like ExTJ's do so well), but he can be a real jerk at times.

With me, I know that he thinks that certain things I do are not "efficient" - because they aren't the way he would do them. But, I work efficiently (INTP's are extremely efficient when we need to be/want to be - in fact, recognizing inefficiencies is probably what we do best). He really has nothing to worry about. I'm doing things as efficiently as they can be done. I sense sometimes that he wants to rip into me (I can see that he is frustrated and kind of wants to "go off" on me), but because he needs what I'm providing so desperately at this time, he holds his tongue.

I feel like he's testing me to see how far he can go with me. He wants to see if he can talk to me the same way he talks to others. He talks down and very blunt to certain people, and then I notice that others he doesn't talk to that way (because he knows it won't fly with certain people).

So, what can I do to:
1. Earn this guys respect? What do you guys respect in a worker?

2. Get him off my back? If he's hovering around me and watching me and probing and asking lots of questions, he's only hurting my performance. INTP's can't perform under that type of pressure. The best thing a boss can do for us is explain clearly what he expects out of us, train us if he wants it done a certain way, and then let us go do it. How can I convince him to take a step back, and let me go? Get out of my face and let me do what I'm paid to do (without pissing him off or being arrogant or getting in a heated argument)???

What should my strategy be here? I'm confused with this guy.

I work with an ESTJ, we get along very well except when I get overloaded by her verbiage. My advice:
1) Be totally upfront about the concerns expressed above.
2) Get an office with a door you can close, or barring that, an isolated workplace. If you can get an office with a door and do some of your work from home, even better.
3) Prove yourself to be a reliable person & a person of your word.

 

[Not_Me]

I had an ESTJ boss for 7 years. He is now my friend. Don't be afraid to stand up to him forcefully if he is abusive. It will teach him to tone down his approach. ESTJs stand up for what they believe in. They assume that others will do the same.

 

[highlander]

I had an ESTJ boss for 7 years. He is now my friend. Don't be afraid to stand up to him forcefully if he is abusive. It will teach him to tone down his approach. ESTJs stand up for what they believe in. They assume that others will do the same.

Very true. Important to have facts though.

 

[simulatedworld]

Hell yes! Do not ever back down, from anyone. Fuck it. If it's on, it's on. The worst that will happen is you end up in the ER.

yay for ESTP advice!


in all seriousness though, Halla's first post on this thread is excellent advice for dealing with Evil Sick Torturous Jackasses.

 

[FDG]

(2) To get him off your back, be direct.

Really? When I do that with ESTJs, it usually (well, always) ends up in a fist-fight. Perhaps we just sense each other's unbearable Te lol
I must admit, I have my own faults, since I never give in to any of their "orders", even if they're my boss (I usually don't have this problem with boss of other types). Every job I've had where my superior was an ESTJ, I've been fired from.

 

[highlander]

Really? When I do that with ESTJs, it usually (well, always) ends up in a fist-fight. Perhaps we just sense each other's unbearable Te lol
I must admit, I have my own faults, since I never give in to any of their "orders", even if they're my boss (I usually don't have this problem with boss of other types). Every job I've had where my superior was an ESTJ, I've been fired from.

Well, yes it sometimes results in conflict, but that is how they interact. You need to have evidence and facts to back up your position though or you get ripped to shreds. That doesn't mean you can't be direct while at the same times being diplomatic and keeping your head. You have to be very careful when they are in "reacting" mode or it can turn ugly.

 

[Halla74]

yay for ESTP advice!

Hah! Just don't let us near your refrigerator, debit card, or ovulating women.

in all seriousness though, Halla's first post on this thread is excellent advice for dealing with Evil Sick Torturous Jackasses.

Nice wording above! Muhaa.

Really? When I do that with ESTJs, it usually (well, always) ends up in a fist-fight. Perhaps we just sense each other's unbearable Te lol
I must admit, I have my own faults, since I never give in to any of their "orders", even if they're my boss (I usually don't have this problem with boss of other types). Every job I've had where my superior was an ESTJ, I've been fired from.

Hey FDG, if its either (1) get into a fist fight, or (2) get shit on by an abusive freak, then I will choose the fist fight, every time. IME, they have been alot easier to deal with once you stand up to them. Honestly, I think that alot of their over the topic reactions are show, triggered by that strong default attachment they have to their construct of order (and that it is NEVER wrong ) but once you show some balls and have evidence to back your case, then I've had no trouble with them. Now, if you disagree with them and have NOTHING to show, it gets really fucking ugly...FAST.

Well, yes it sometimes results on conflict, but that is how they interact. You need to have evidence and facts to back up your position though or you get ripped to shreds. That doesn't mean you can't be direct while at the same times being diplomatic and keeping your head. You have to be very careful when they are in "reacting" mode or it can turn ugly.

Beautifully put, THIS!

 

[Chunes]

My father is an ESTJ, and especially considering my type, we've had a lottttttt of head-butting over the years. So I feel somewhat merited in giving some advice. ESTJs need frequent status updates. You may not feel like giving them, but if you don't, they'll get miffed and even pissed off.

They usually trigger the conflict; they sort of show up and shove a heap of crap in your face and insinuate 'challenge me or bow before me.' You'll be peaceably living your life and all of a sudden they take this fight to you that you had no intention of ever participating in. I'm pretty sure they must thrive off aggression and domination. I can't think of any other reasons for their behavior. They are constantly testing other people, so they can get whatever sick rush they get from hurting others. Sorry I don't have much good to say about them. I'm trying.

 

[highlander]

The only other thing I will mention is that if they are the boss - remember they are the boss. Try and understand how they are evaluated and make them look good. You can voice an opinion, you can suggest alternatives, you can be honest and direct, you do not have to be a doormat. At the end of the day though, you need to be able to take direction.

 

[Halla74]

My father is an ESTJ, and especially considering my type, we've had a lottttttt of head-butting over the years. So I feel somewhat merited in giving some advice. ESTJs need frequent status updates. You may not feel like giving them, but if you don't, they'll get miffed and even pissed off.

My Dad is an ESTJ too. I'm an ESTP.

Your status update strategy is a good one, as it "defuses the bomb."

They usually trigger the conflict; they sort of show up and shove a heap of crap in your face and insinuate 'challenge me or bow before me.' You'll be peaceably living your life and all of a sudden they take this fight to you that you had no intention of ever participating in. I'm pretty sure they must thrive off aggression and domination. I can't think of any other reasons for their behavior. They are constantly testing other people, so they can get whatever sick rush they get from hurting others. Sorry I don't have much good to say about them. I'm trying.

Interesting you note the above. The #1 and #2 MBTI types most likely to exhibit control freak tendencies: (1) ESTJ, and (2) ESTP.

Once I realized that control was an illusion (thank you, Mother, I shall always be in your debt for this lesson) I got over feeling a need to be "in control" of things.

Also, the degree that an ESTJ has developed a sense of empathy is integral in their relations with people. My Dad is actually a very good man. He got a master's degree in education and specialized in counseling. He worked with soldiers that were about to get in serious trouble for any number of reasons, family difficulty, disciplinary issues, alcohol/drug abuse, etc. He got their attention, won them over, and got hem back on track.

However, even in the midst of this type of human-centric life coaching skill, he was an absolute terror as my soccer coach, and most assuredly the undisputed king of the household AND of his office. Ironically enough no one ever challenged him at either location! That is just how they are, direct, blunt, authoritative, confrontational, but that does not mean that they are devoid of capacity to be well intended or altruistic. They are an interesting type because their intentions often get missed by others because their DELIVERY is so often unecessarily abrasive.

The only other think I will mention is that if they are the boss - remember they are the boss. Try and understand how they are evaluated and make them look good. You can voice an opinion, you can suggest alternatives, you can be honest and direct, you do not have to be a doormat. At the end of the day though, you need to be able to take direction.

Dude, I love every sentence of your response above.

The part about respecting your boss simply because that is their office, and as their staff, you need to be able to take direction, that is advice of paramount importance to anyone. Rock on, Bro.

 

[mrcockburn]

As far as your boss and his/her company is concerned, YOU are an input to the output. Yes. You.

You are a commodity. You are LABOR, and nothing else to him. All that matters is that you produce. Produce, produce, produce. Make like the hen with the eggs. :chicken: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken:

Do that, and you have nothing to worry about.

 

[FDG]

As far as your boss and his/her company is concerned, YOU are an input to the output. Yes. You.

You are a commodity. You are LABOR, and nothing else to him. All that matters is that you produce. Produce, produce, produce. Make like the hen with the eggs. :chicken: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken:

Do that, and you have nothing to worry about.

If a boss dared to say that to me, I'll produce a basket of eggs on his-her face :hi:

 

[highlander]

If a boss dared to say that to me, I'll produce a basket of eggs on his-her face :hi:

There is an enormous amount of variety between ESTJs. Some examples of my peers or people I have worked for (all fairly senior level people):

1. Example 1 (peer) - In many ways, is and comes across as really great guy. Respected for his effectiveness in HR matters. Very bottom line oriented. Has rigid views and can pick a fight if those views aren't respected. I like him, but he does have a tendency to not help people progress and can get them fired. He can also stab others in the back but never seems to get caught.

2. Example 2 (peer) - Not so polished as number one. Highly successful and very deep expertise, which she is respected for. Sticks up for her people like nobody you'd ever meet. Gets a little excited at times. Not as well rounded as the others.

3. Example 3 (boss) - Incredible guy to work for. Mature and well developed ESTJ, who is well respected in wide circles. I have had few better bosses. Did not micromanage at all. No complaints whatsoever.

4. Example 4 (boss) - Very senior level person. Focuses on the next three months financials and nothing more. On the same token, he is a very good leader in his own right and in many ways is an effective coach.

5. Example 5 (peer) - Off the chart ESTJ. There is one right way. His way. Very good guy, but I do not always agree with his approach which at times is over-engineered. Fanatical advocate for his people.

They are all very different. So, it is hard to say what yours is like.