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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    the truth, ozz. mbti is not based on functions, but "four letters". the mbti function order is a lie. its not the fundament of how most tests work, or how archetypes work (how our intuitive theory of mind comes to an understanding of what letters like J or P mean). the mbti function order has been poetized into mbti afterwards.
    (this is me, not caring about people who disagree: --
    i have heard it all.)
    I agree that most test are testing for the individual letters rather than functions.
    Any source you can cite? Most people believe Myers-Briggs comes from Jung's work. I hadn't read any of those original work and would be interested in taking a look.

  2. #22
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    My ISFJ mother is very emotionally open and Fe, on the other hand, I have a male ISFJ friend who is not expressive at all. However it's fairly clear that he is Si+Fe, because of his concern for social norms and the well being of others, he is just much more reserved about his expression of these feelings (to the point he can appear quite self involved). I think it comes from his rather closed-off nature and basic fear of opening up. His home life wasn't really the right environment for someone like him who needs a lot of nurturing and reassurance.

    In other words, you just might not be seeing the Fe. It is possible that your friend is just a very expressed introvert who doesn't bandy that function about. Or it's possible that they grew up in an environment that didn't encourage the growth of their Fe.
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  3. #23
    Member michL87's Avatar
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    I edited the original post to hopefully answer some questions you all posed
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  4. #24
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michL87 View Post
    She is ridiculously scheduled. We have a class together and I looked over at her planner. I nearly went into shock when looking at it -- it was organized, highlighted, coded, etc. I just wondered who carried around so many pens/highlighters to make their schedule as organized as that! Apparently she does. She always gets her homework done when she says she's going to. (Meanwhile, I say I'm going to do homework and it doesn't get done until last minute.) She's also president of her sorority, and does everything according to the rules. She's a huge fan of the traditions of the sorority (something I didn't get very into.)
    .................

    This sounds very like her. She grew up in a difficult environment, with no one around to boost her self-esteem. She's dated controlling/possibly abusive guys in college. She only broke up with the first one after she was positive that she had someone to replace him -- since she always needs to be in a relationship. And the one she replaced him with was mentally abusive and ended up cheating on her a year later. Of course she had another boyfriend soon after that.

    She believes that "true friends are the ones who care enough to see the walls and break them down" -- or something to that nature.

    She never really cares about what her friends are going through or about helping them deal with their problems. It's always about her and her problems -- if she's even willing to talk about them. Otherwise, she just likes talking about other people, shopping, or stuff to do with the sorority.
    Yeah, with your edit/further information, I don't think her personality/behavior is incompatible with ISFJ.

    The lack of Fe/demonstrated care/concern/giving towards others is probably because she's in a place where she feels the need to care for and protect herself, and therefore she's willfully pushing others to the back burner. And part of this is probably subconscious, too, and I doubt she's even aware of much of herself. Especially when you mention her pattern of unhealthy romantic relationships....that also demonstrates her lack of esteem. Also she probably doesn't trust people easily, which would make it that much easier for her to push back and be almost anti-Fe. Hopefully at some point she'll be able to work herself into a healthier place, and find a better balance.

    I don't think this is inconsistent with Fe, as speaking from my own behavior, I have done similarly in the past. Turned 'off' the Fe/feeling, such that I almost came to scorn it. It was purely self-protective, because I had been so sensitive growing up.

    (also, enneagram-wise, she might be sp - self-protective - which again would lessen her demonstrated Fe traits)

    And, I think this provides a good example of why one has to be careful with mbti, and not weigh it overly heavily in terms of a persons' psychology and behavior...I mean, there's so much more to psychology.
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  5. #25
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    all true isfj (introverted people with "strong letter J", who dont fake their tests results) lack Fe. their functions are FiSe. simple as that. my congratulations for having a good enough understanding of Fe to tell the difference from Fi. you might be smart. or its just coincidental.
    Right, exactly.

    everyone has to develop theory of mind on his own. however it's a logical must, to compare your understanding of functions of introverted people with extroverted people. it's no problem to look at genuine 4 letter code isfj and find some complex in their traits, that seems effie in a way, and somehow extroverted in some way. you can call that Fe, and you can believe that this confirms the so called mbti function assignment. but look at this complex of theory of yours, and try to apply it to exfj and exfp. if your understanding of Fe would be correct, it would have to match exfj. but i predict: if your theoretical complex was actually based on theory of mind, then it can not possibly match exfj and it will match exfp. you can only find arbitrary superficial things in common of both exfj and ixfj. they have no complex of theory of mind in common. nothing that explains the 'how' and 'why' of motives and emotional 'reasoning'. but isfj and exfp have a lot of theory of mind in common. btw, genuine 4 letter istj have a genuine Fe mind complex, opperating as big time raving shadow. (genuine isfj have a raving Te shadow)
    Yes, perfect.

    So, ISFjs without Fe definitely exist.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    the truth, ozz. mbti is not based on functions, but "four letters". the mbti function order is a lie. its not the fundament of how most tests work, or how archetypes work (how our intuitive theory of mind comes to an understanding of what letters like J or P mean). the mbti function order has been poetized into mbti afterwards.
    (this is me, not caring about people who disagree: --
    i have heard it all.)
    If MBTI is a lie, then what theory are you saying is correct?

  7. #27
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah, with your edit/further information, I don't think her personality/behavior is incompatible with ISFJ.

    The lack of Fe/demonstrated care/concern/giving towards others is probably because she's in a place where she feels the need to care for and protect herself, and therefore she's willfully pushing others to the back burner. And part of this is probably subconscious, too, and I doubt she's even aware of much of herself. Especially when you mention her pattern of unhealthy romantic relationships....that also demonstrates her lack of esteem. Also she probably doesn't trust people easily, which would make it that much easier for her to push back and be almost anti-Fe. Hopefully at some point she'll be able to work herself into a healthier place, and find a better balance.

    I don't think this is inconsistent with Fe, as speaking from my own behavior, I have done similarly in the past. Turned 'off' the Fe/feeling, such that I almost came to scorn it. It was purely self-protective, because I had been so sensitive growing up.

    (also, enneagram-wise, she might be sp - self-protective - which again would lessen her demonstrated Fe traits)

    And, I think this provides a good example of why one has to be careful with mbti, and not weigh it overly heavily in terms of a persons' psychology and behavior...I mean, there's so much more to psychology.
    +1

  8. #28
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    Based on the XSFJ's that I know, they all seem to like to take care of other people but they don't strike me as particularly sensitive toward other people. In fact, they don't seem to have a real good grip on their own feelings -- irrational, inane, and over-dramatized. XSFP's have always struck me as being far more sensitive toward other people than XSFJ's.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Bart View Post
    Based on the XSFJ's that I know, they all seem to like to take care of other people but they don't strike me as particularly sensitive toward other people. In fact, they don't seem to have a real good grip on their own feelings -- irrational, inane, and over-dramatized. XSFP's have always struck me as being far more sensitive toward other people than XSFJ's.
    I am very close to an ISFP and we would both say that we are equally sensitive towards other people. We both have our strengths and weaknesses.

    Lily, this comment reminds me why MTBI isn't everything....neither is socionomics or any of the other tests. Someone I know (that I wish I didn't!) apparently tests ISFJ, just like I do. She is just like the XSFJ's that you would describe - irrational, inane and severely over-dramatized. For the longest time, I thought there was no way that we could have the same personality type (as did others who knew me). But now I'm realizing that it's possible that we can -- but our development as people or other factors in our lives or SOMETHING is way different. I hate drama, I tend to be quiet and sensitive and caring behind the scenes. Very much like the ISFP I know. (He thinks she's psycho...as does an INFP that is very close to me.)

    Although I think these tests are good parameters for the way people see and process and the world, etc...I think there is a WIDE scope within the testing for people to range. My sister tests as an ISFJ and if you knew the two of us, you would never believe it. We have always been extremely different. I think it's important to remember that personality type does not explain everything.

  10. #30
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    Actually, Myers-Briggs has an explanation -- if the judging function is not well-developed (for example, for some of the reasons the original poster alluded to) then a Feeling type may appear to be cold and uncaring or a drama queen. Feeling types are probably more at risk for this than Thinking types -- if the world just expects too much of you Feeling-wise, it seems logical to me to shut this function off in self-defense. But if your preferred judging function is shut down, there's nothing else to face life with and you end up with half a personality, essentially.

    I guess my intention was to point out to the original poster that just because a person has Feeling Judgement, it does not necessarily follow that such Judgement is expressed as sensitivity towards others.

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