[ESTJ] ESTJs: criticism and imagination.

[EJCC]

What makes an ESTJ go soft? What 'melts' them, allows one to move past their tough exterior?

Thank you for blessing the forum with such an awesome question! I didn't know I had a tough exterior... I guess I do, in a way, though. (I had always thought of it as just being overly cautious/suspicious, but "tough" works too.) I suddenly feel like a badass! w00t!

Are you talking about making friends with ESTJs, or just warming up to them?

If you mean making friends, here's my suggestion: I'm not sure about other (read: male) ESTJs, but with me, the best way to see my marshmallow center is to show that you care. I'm not necessarily going to be the daring one in friendships, especially in the early stages. If you show that you want to go to that level, and if you and I are compatible, it won't be so hard.

If you mean becoming a friendly acquaintance, I'd suggest making jokes, and pointing out shared interests. ESTJs are an EXTREMELY varied bunch, interest-wise (one ESTJ's passion can be another's taboo), so I wouldn't suggest one particular thing over another. (There's no reliable ESTJ conversation topic, like there might be with NTs [science, usually]). The "show that you care" thing applies here, too, to a lesser degree, since it's hard for two people to be friendly when one of them doesn't care what the other has to say.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Thank you for blessing the forum with such an awesome question! I didn't know I had a tough exterior... I guess I do, in a way, though. (I had always thought of it as just being overly cautious/suspicious, but "tough" works too.) I suddenly feel like a badass! w00t!

Are you talking about making friends with ESTJs, or just warming up to them?

If you mean making friends, here's my suggestion: I'm not sure about other (read: male) ESTJs, but with me, the best way to see my marshmallow center is to show that you care. I'm not necessarily going to be the daring one in friendships, especially in the early stages. If you show that you want to go to that level, and if you and I are compatible, it won't be so hard.

If you mean becoming a friendly acquaintance, I'd suggest making jokes, and pointing out shared interests. ESTJs are an EXTREMELY varied bunch, interest-wise (one ESTJ's passion can be another's taboo), so I wouldn't suggest one particular thing over another. (There's no reliable ESTJ conversation topic, like there might be with NTs [science, usually]). The "show that you care" thing applies here, too, to a lesser degree, since it's hard for two people to be friendly when one of them doesn't care what the other has to say.

I think this is good, I kind of come from the other end of the relationship spectrum though. I'm dating an ESTJ, and as much as they get beat up a bit here, I really love mine. What she loves, is basically, effort. And when you think about it, that's not a crazy demand. The best way to melt her heart is me showing effort, some attention to detail, and to show that I care about some of her values. She loves when I cook for her, and make a romantic dinner, partially because it shows I am capable of planning something, executing something, and putting in the work to make her happy. She loves that I remember her favorite candle scent, that I used two wine glasses she got us for our 2nd new years together, and that I always keep her favorite drinks and snacks stocked.

So, just try as hard as she/he does. That's what I've discovered.

 

[Qre:us]

I suddenly feel like a badass! w00t!

Don't ever put an expiration date on your ass!

Are you talking about making friends with ESTJs, or just warming up to them?

My fadarrrr.

the best way to see my marshmallow center is to show that you care.

Yeah, that's the key (but isn't that so for all types? maybe more so for ESTJ). I guess my primary reason for asking is because growing up, my father and I didn't always see I-to-Aye!. He's the only one who makes me go from 0-60 in seconds. Full out, blow out.

And, I've grown up. Our relationship has too. And, now he's the man I respect the most (including his character).

And, I want to find ways to say 'thank you'. That I appreciate him. He's not much on words. Nor feelings. So, I ask to know what method would be most appropriate for showing appeciation.

ESTJs are an EXTREMELY varied bunch, interest-wise (one ESTJ's passion can be another's taboo), so I wouldn't suggest one particular thing over another. (There's no reliable ESTJ conversation topic, like there might be with NTs [science, usually]).

Very true. For someone who always is so rigid and stubborn with his pov, I have often been suprised with how much more open-minded he was about some things where my INFP mom would have judgements.
The T = objective.

 

[Qre:us]

What she loves, is basically, effort. And when you think about it, that's not a crazy demand.

So, just try as hard as she/he does. That's what I've discovered.

Yes! Although it is a formidable feat, because now that I assess all that he does, without nary a peep demanding ('look at what I did!') recognition, he seems a bit like superman, I'm sure the effort of trying would be more than enough for him. He's simple like that, simply wonderful.

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, that's the key (but isn't that so for all types? maybe more so for ESTJ).

I think it may actually be more true for ESTJs. I've read a bunch of things that say that when ESTJs get stressed, they feel incredibly unappreciated (and if they feel especially bad, they may start feeling like that unappreciation is for good reason... though, again, this might not be so for all ESTJs).

And, I want to find ways to say 'thank you'. That I appreciate him. He's not much on words. Nor feelings. So, I ask to know what method would be most appropriate for showing appeciation.

I agree with Jock on this one - find little things to do for him that show that you know him, and know what he needs/wants. Maybe help him out when he's overworked, or treating him to something he really likes. He may ask what the occasion is, or why you're treating him to things, and you might respond "Oh, it's just that you do so much for everyone(/me/us/whatever), and I wanted to give something back"... or something to that effect that sounds less lame. You get the idea.

 

[Unique]

yes, the control issue. That was *always* where I would butt up against them. I can't tell you how many times I said, "Yes, I know what you want, and what the ideal process should be... but here are the options you actually DO get... and you are KILLING yourself by not being realistic here. you need to ease up and accept the parameters you've been given."

iow, the situation was gray; and in their desire for b/w, they were just hurting themselves and others by jamming the square pegs into the round holes over and over.

Is there any way out of this situation with an ESTJ? Besides just throwing your hands up in the air and walking away?

To be honest I have never really had a normal conversation with my ESTJ father. Always leads back to something thats wrong with me or that I'm morally corrupt. I'm no F but damn its hurtful even for me! I could picture some serious tears happening for some F types if it was said to them. I have totally given up and lost hope, there is no way he will ever talk to me just because he is interested in how I am.

Often times I don't even get a "hello, how are you" its just straight into the onslaught. you didn't do this how dare you blah blah blah

Then I'll say "Yeah I haven't seen you in a few days, it's nice to see you too" then he will force a "hello, how are you" then I say "you say that now? just leave me be"

Luckily not all ESTJs are like this but when an ESTJ goes bad they go really bad.

I don't think he was always like this... from the little I can remember of when I was younger

Unhealthy ESTJ types are very noticeable! More so than any other type I think

To throw a positive in. Healthy ESTJs do such amazing and kind jobs that a lot of people just wouldn't have the courage to do. I actually look forward to meeting some new ESTJs that may be more tolerant of me

 

[simulatedworld]

I was wondering why some people think ESTJs are overly critical and have no imagination. For example, when I am correcting someone, I try to do it in as nice of a way as possible. Also, as far as imagination goes, I love movies such as Star Wars and Harry Potter, and enjoy reading those type books as well.

(one thing that is correct that people think about is how ESTJs think and like to go into details. For example, I had to retype this whole thing just to eliminate the small details. And as you can see, this is beginning to go into small details as well, so i'll stop here. )

Do many people just have a misunderstanding of ESTJs, or am I just abnormal? lol.

Well, ESTJs can definitely be imaginative! That's not the problem--the problem I think most people have with them is that they tend to assume that their particular imaginative vision is the only way, and sometimes they have trouble letting other people's imagination come into play.

 

[simulatedworld]

Is there any way out of this situation with an ESTJ? Besides just throwing your hands up in the air and walking away?

I'm afraid not, and that's what turns so many people off from them. I find that doing whatever I can to allow them to at least believe they still have control of the situation helps to open them up a little bit.

 

[wildcat]

Suppose there had been no ESTJs among our midst.
We should not be here to criticize them.

Power does not attain to glory.
Glory does not attain to power.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, ESTJs can definitely be imaginative! That's not the problem--the problem I think most people have with them is that they tend to assume that their particular imaginative vision is the only way, and sometimes they have trouble letting other people's imagination come into play.

That's one way to say it.

One of the ESTJs I became good friends with was heavily into fanfic and the Trek franchise and organized the TrekTrak forum for years down at Atlanta's Dragon*Con. He just tended to approach "imaginative" stuff with ESTJ sensibilities, rather than being artsy-fartsy or freeform about it.

At first he thought I was sort of flaky because I was whimsical and not as structured/disciplined as him, but when we talked enough and he saw me work through some situations in a rational manner and with a good sense of the realistic aspects of things, he gave me his respect.

And that's sort of how to approach them: They might not see where you're coming from right off if you're not taking a very methodical, hard-edged approach to working a situation and trying to bring closure to it, but if you share enough of your thoughts that they can perceive you're actually thinking through it and have reasons for doing what you're doing, then they can be more supportive. The ones I knew also seem to respect diligence, responsibility, having an ideal of excellence in one's work, and taking initiative.

 

[EJCC]

And that's sort of how to approach them: They might not see where you're coming from right off if you're not taking a very methodical, hard-edged approach to working a situation and trying to bring closure to it, but if you share enough of your thoughts that they can perceive you're actually thinking through it and have reasons for doing what you're doing, then they can be more supportive. The ones I knew also seem to respect diligence, responsibility, having an ideal of excellence in one's work, and taking initiative.

<ramble>

Exactly - be patient, give us a little time, and we'll get it. We may not be CONVINCED (or we might - who knows?), but we may in fact see where you're coming from. A lot of people don't realize that the ESTJ "my-way-is-the-only-way" exterior isn't nearly as hard as it seems; with a little pressure, loads of evidence and much convincing, our seemingly invulnerable convictions can be swayed. e.g. I now know, after much experience, that with most music that I say I "hate", no matter how passionately, I can learn to like it by just playing it over and over until I become accustomed to it (I did this with the NIN cd "The Downward Spiral"). Same with many other things.

(That's probably why people call us hypocrites, actually... my theory as to that is that ESTJs are incredibly loud about what's "right" and what we'll "never do", without realizing that things CHANGE over time, and that people are flawed... and once the ESTJ switches positions on something, they feel incredibly guilty about their hypocrisy, then rationalize their way out of the negative feelings. For example, I just joined a social networking site after years of saying that I'd never do it, and now I feel terrible... I hope you see what I mean.)

</ramble>

 

[BlackCat]

ESTJs are cool first off.

I cannot tell you the pain of having to deal with an unhealthy ESTJ as their opposite. This is where most of the ESTJ hate comes from. I work with plenty of XSTJs and the best way of communication is blunt, to the point with a bit of respect thrown in. This is the best way to bond with one it seems. They will see you as a good person if you do good things, it's fairly simple. Other than that it's all up to the relationship, everyone is different, and since ESTJs are one of the most common then there will most certainly be a lot of unique people within that particular type. Sometimes if you have no common ground it just won't work.

By the way I cannot emphasize enough how much of an effect proving how good of a human you are to them is. I remember a co worker (male ESTJ) needed some help with his work (stocker) so that he could get home early for some family issue. I offered to help (someone took my place on the register) and the next day he bought me lunch. That was very cool. Little things like that add up, they won't forget a good thing you have done.

 

[Unique]

ESTP says...

Why should I help you....?

I guess this is why I don't get along with ESTJs most of the time (well according to socionics thats normal for ESTP/ESTJ relations)

I'm just not "good" enough you see...I'd rather use my brain to help people

I've noticed most of the computer work I do for an ESTJ goes completely unnoticed and unappreciated but cleaning the bathroom on the other hand....

We just don't understand each other... I've got nothing against ESTJs but I believe that they can't get along with ESTPs from my experience.