[ISTJ] Indecisive ISTJ

[2XtremeENFP]

Yes, yes, I am still asking questions about a particular ISTJ, if you need some catching up, read some of my posts in this forum, haha

Anyhoooo---

I have been hanging out with this ISTJ whom I previously used to date and this 'hanging out without commitment' has been going on for about a year. He isnt seeing anyone else, same goes for me. He's not the type to use girls either (no need to argue, because I know this is true)

He doesnt want to commit because he thinks since we've broken up before, it's ultimately going to happen again (dang that Si) so we are just going down a path that leads to nowhere.

reasons we broke up before were things that have yet to be determined (How would we raise kids, etc) we also broke up because we had never really dated anyone else so we hadnt had much dating experience...

He's at the point where once every few months he brings up that we need to stop hanging out like we do. We try, and days later we're still close and hanging out. it's not always physical or anything like that. We just have so much fun together that we can't stay away. Yet, even though we both agree on this, he still won't commit. He says "let's try to not hang out one-on-one anymore,.. but i know that I'm saying this now and tomorrow I'll want to change my mind". He says he has seen a progressive change in me, but still says he thinks it wont work but cannot give reasons why. he says that sometimes he thinks he is convincing himself not to fall back in love with me, and to not try and have a relationship again... He says he doesnt know how he feels. . is this 'Convincing himself' happen just because he's trying to hang on to what he has already made up in his mind (that we wont work) or is it something else? how can I get him to stop convincing himself? How can he/we tell if it's his true feelings of him manipulating them?

Sometimes he wants me, sometimes he doesnt. Sometimes he thinks I'm the one, sometimes he doesn't. He ended the conversation saying that we need to stop hanging out indefinitely to see how he feels... can we do it?
(but, in the past, we keep ending back up together... how do I convince him that there has to be a reason why this is happening??...)

What causes indecisiveness in an ISTJ?
What can I do to help him make up his mind?

Sorry for the lengthy message.. can't sleep and I needed to get it out.

Brutal honesty is welcome. As is any advice whatsoever

.

 

[FallaciaSonata]

If I were in his situation....

I would indeed have already made up my mind on whether or not to actually commit. I'm like that --- I either go 100% in or out. There is no in-between. However, I would not want to kill the friendship here either, and by flatly saying "No, we aren't going to work", I would put forth a risk that the friendship would wither, weaken, or die altogether.

It's not solid ground, that's for sure. In a perfect world, I would be able to simply say, "I do not think we would work as a couple, but let us remain friends", and it would work out just like that. There would be no awkwardness, no future issues, it would simply "be".

On another note, (this may or may not be helpful) I have noticed that there are certain people I am compelled to talk to, and I don't know if it would be out of morbid curiosity, or what, but I find that I generally dislike them. But I still want to know how they think, and what makes them tick. Even though I don't like their way of doing things.

I'm sure that's not the case here, but I thought I'd mention it for....well, I thought I'd mention it.

'course.....I can't really point the finger in this department seeing how I've only had one girlfriend, primarily for the experience of it. But that's another story for another time.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

alright, I'm just going to throw this out there. Maybe, just maybe he's having too many changing thoughts about you and him together. One day he'll be like "oh yeah i really like you" and the next day he wants space.
He could really just be enjoying you and your presents as a friend and then he slips and gets in too deep and then realises he needs to get out of that hole before things progress in a way he doesnt want it to progress. Sometimes you may not have feelings for somebody, especially friends of the opposite sex, and the moment you start spending alot of extra time together you become hypnotized by the other person...but you dont really like like them. You just like being around them awhole lot, but things go deeper without that person really WANTING it to, he could just be going with it and then suddenly realise "oh crap, get out, get out!". I dont really know if im explaining this properly....if someone gets what im saying, please feel free to explain it in terms we can all understand!

 

[wildcat]

Yes, yes, I am still asking questions about a particular ISTJ, if you need some catching up, read some of my posts in this forum, haha

Anyhoooo---

I have been hanging out with this ISTJ whom I previously used to date and this 'hanging out without commitment' has been going on for about a year. He isnt seeing anyone else, same goes for me. He's not the type to use girls either (no need to argue, because I know this is true)

He doesnt want to commit because he thinks since we've broken up before, it's ultimately going to happen again (dang that Si) so we are just going down a path that leads to nowhere.

reasons we broke up before were things that have yet to be determined (How would we raise kids, etc) we also broke up because we had never really dated anyone else so we hadnt had much dating experience...

He's at the point where once every few months he brings up that we need to stop hanging out like we do. We try, and days later we're still close and hanging out. it's not always physical or anything like that. We just have so much fun together that we can't stay away. Yet, even though we both agree on this, he still won't commit. He says "let's try to not hang out one-on-one anymore,.. but i know that I'm saying this now and tomorrow I'll want to change my mind". He says he has seen a progressive change in me, but still says he thinks it wont work but cannot give reasons why. he says that sometimes he thinks he is convincing himself not to fall back in love with me, and to not try and have a relationship again... He says he doesnt know how he feels. . is this 'Convincing himself' happen just because he's trying to hang on to what he has already made up in his mind (that we wont work) or is it something else? how can I get him to stop convincing himself? How can he/we tell if it's his true feelings of him manipulating them?

Sometimes he wants me, sometimes he doesnt. Sometimes he thinks I'm the one, sometimes he doesn't. He ended the conversation saying that we need to stop hanging out indefinitely to see how he feels... can we do it?
(but, in the past, we keep ending back up together... how do I convince him that there has to be a reason why this is happening??...)

What causes indecisiveness in an ISTJ?
What can I do to help him make up his mind?

Sorry for the lengthy message.. can't sleep and I needed to get it out.

Brutal honesty is welcome. As is any advice whatsoever

.

Control > drive.

 

[Cimarron]

Sounds like he's afraid of the possibility of being hurt? I think...

Because I do that a lot: When I want to cut someone out of my life "for the better" even though I have to go against my own desires, I "convince myself" in the way you said. But for him to speak about that with you kind of shows he's faltering, which as you said, sounds like indecision to me.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Sounds like he's afraid of the possibility of being hurt?

I thought about this, but it's weird. I really don't think he gets hurt, or jealous or anything like that. He isn't usually affected by other people's actions, if he ever has feelings come to surface, it's his own personal feelings, and how he feels, not how someone else makes him feel. Does that make sense?

When we broke up before, I dated around a little bit and when we had this talk last night, I asked him how he felt when we weren't hanging out while I was with someone else. And i asked him to be honest and he's like.. I was fine. Really, I was okay with all of that.

So, maybe he really just doesnt care about me anymore if he's able to not care while I was dating someone else

 

[Slickness]

I thought about this, but it's weird. I really don't think he gets hurt, or jealous or anything like that. He isn't usually affected by other people's actions, if he ever has feelings come to surface, it's his own personal feelings, and how he feels, not how someone else makes him feel. Does that make sense?

When we broke up before, I dated around a little bit and when we had this talk last night, I asked him how he felt when we weren't hanging out while I was with someone else. And i asked him to be honest and he's like.. I was fine. Really, I was okay with all of that.

So, maybe he really just doesnt care about me anymore if he's able to not care while I was dating someone else

Well I'm an ISTJ, and I know that I [sort of] only focus on one thing at a time. So if something else is happening (such as you hanging out with a different friend), then the reason he doesn't mind is probably because he wasn't thinking about it.

 

[AutumnReverie]

Well I'm an ISTJ, and I know that I [sort of] only focus on one thing at a time. So if something else is happening (such as you hanging out with a different friend), then the reason he doesn't mind is probably because he wasn't thinking about it.

+ 1. I'm an ISTJ and I have had friends and family members ask me that in the past too ("how did you feel when we weren't hanging out?"). And I've replied "I was fine" on more than one occasion as well. In my case, it didn't have anything to do with how much I cared for the person. Usually when a person is gone and I'm doing other things then I'm occupied with those other things. Then when the person comes back and we hang out again, I'll think to myself "I love spending time with him/her!"

However, if it's a person I'm romantically interested in...I do tend to keep that person in the back of my mind always. But still, I would be functioning normally while they were gone and therefore might still reply "I was fine" in complete honesty. As in "I was fine (i.e. not an emotional wreck) while you were gone, but I'm glad to be spending time with you now that you're here again".

 

[Lambchop]

I'm not an ISTJ, but I'm borderline on the T.

Do you want to be with this person?

If you do, I would stop hanging out with him. That will force him to think about whether he wants to be with you and thinks it would work or not officially.

This might be hard to hear...but he might just be hanging out with you so much because he doesn't have anything better to do or anyone better to hang out with.

On the other hand! When I was dating my husband (then boyfriend), I broke up with him one time when I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't going to work. We continued to hang out as friends. I continued to hang out with him because I liked hanging out with him and I liked him. But we kept telling ourselves that it just wasn't going to work out. We both said we shouldn't spend so much time together. I started dating someone else. The new guy didn't want me hanging out with the old boyfriend. Once I stopped seeing him for awhile, I realized that I hated not being able to see him and started seeing things from a whole different perspective. Being away from me made him do the same thing (he started dating someone else too.) We got back together. We're married now.

It depends on what you want out of the relationship I suppose. It could be that you are both clinging to the safety of the relationship because you're afraid to go out and find something else.

 

[Lambchop]

alright, I'm just going to throw this out there. Maybe, just maybe he's having too many changing thoughts about you and him together. One day he'll be like "oh yeah i really like you" and the next day he wants space.
He could really just be enjoying you and your presents as a friend and then he slips and gets in too deep and then realises he needs to get out of that hole before things progress in a way he doesnt want it to progress. Sometimes you may not have feelings for somebody, especially friends of the opposite sex, and the moment you start spending alot of extra time together you become hypnotized by the other person...but you dont really like like them. You just like being around them awhole lot, but things go deeper without that person really WANTING it to, he could just be going with it and then suddenly realise "oh crap, get out, get out!". I dont really know if im explaining this properly....if someone gets what im saying, please feel free to explain it in terms we can all understand!

This is another possible explanation.

Stepho, I think you are fabulous...but I'm about to join the Grammar Nazi with your posts. I feel like an English teacher. I'm seeing run-on sentences and improper punctuation and capitalization all over the place!

 

[FallaciaSonata]

If there weren't any grammatical errors in the world....we would have nothing left to correct. How tedious would that become?

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Hmm, after not speaking with him for about a day and a half, he invited me to movies and to hang out. I did it but didn't show affection towards him. Slowly, he started putting his arm around me or holding my hand. I just kinda let him take control in how to move things forward. A couple days later, without me knowing why or even understanding what could have possibly changed, he said he wants to give us a chance and he thinks we could work out in the end. He wants us not to do anything physical so we can focus on building our relationship...

do you think he's sincere? Did I miraculous win him back without effort? Or do you think in a couple months he'll go back to his old Si idea that we'll never work?

????

 

[Cimarron]

Common trend here seems to be that he wants you to stay in his life.
Previous "not committing to relationship" = afraid it will end in disaster and you will not be part of his life after that.
Now asking for renewed relationship = directly asking you to be part of his life.

It's a crazy thing to try to guess, but...well that's what I've got.

When you write "I did, but didn't show affection toward him," was that something new and sudden you were trying, or was that normal for you?

 

[2XtremeENFP]

When you write "I did, but didn't show affection toward him," was that something new and sudden you were trying, or was that normal for you?

firstly, Cimarron, all of the advice you've been giving to me since I've been apart of the board has been so helpful! Thanks!!

ANYHOO...

I took all I had in me to turn off every bit of Feeling I have and just not show affection. It was something I had to do. I wasn't mean or cold, I just didn't give him that Ga-Ga look that I always do when I'm around him.

Yesterday night, he came over and we watched some TV. Things were fine, and we were having a good time together. Still no physically affection aside from little kisses. THEN--- he asked me to officially be his girlfriend and took it back... All within a matter of 20 seconds...

What in the world.

This time he started talking about how he's not in love with me now,
I tried to explain that if we start to exclusively date again, I'm not saying we need to get married tomorrow. He says that he thinks we should.. if we've been "together" for 5 years, we either need to break our ways or get married (we're both at the age where marriage should be in our near future)

then he questions how much he loved me before in the past when we dated (we dated for nearly 3 years exclusively). He says what if what he felt wasn't as strong as love is supposed to be. What if there's something more that neither of us have experienced because we can't break away from eachother long enough to try. I told him to think about what he wants because I'd rather him be sure and give me an answer than keep taking things back.

[flashback] when we first dated, I told me he loved me and took it back two separate times before he was sure he 'truly' loved me.

I guess this makes me ask.. what is an ISTJ's view of love? Is Love purely Logical to them?

 

[IZthe411]

I guess this makes me ask.. what is an ISTJ's view of love? Is Love purely Logical to them?

Love isn't purely logical, because there are emotions experienced, but since we are primarily logical in our approach to things (it has to make sense), he doesn't want to say he loves you or he's in love because those things are hard to define.


Love's a hard thing for us ISTJs. Being that we aren't led by feelings, when they do come around, it's hard for us to deal with. Some of them are easy to identify, but when it comes to love, we are baffled. I mean if somebody slaps me, and I get angry, it's because they put their hand to my face. EASY. But if what you say or what you do affects me like no one else, it's HARD to deal with.

I know personally I can't say that I'm in love with my girlfriend. Do I love her? Yes. I know I do because I will do stuff for her that I would do for no one else. I think about her a lot. She has an affect on my feelings, and I don't want to hurt her feelings. It took me a while to realize that I did love her, but until I got these type of definitions, I couldn't answer that.

Am I in love with her? I don't know. I know that ISTJs aren't comfortable with that 'you'll know when you are' or 'if you have to ask you aren't' answers because they defy all that we stand for. They have no basis, nothing concrete.

I struggle with that from time to time. Since I'm don't know if I'm in love, since I know sometimes I don't want to deal with her touchy feely needs, since I sometimes don't want to be bothered with her, I conclude I'm not in love, or I don't truly love her. I think that to be in love I need to feel that way all the time. But it's impossible for me to be myself and be totally into another person all the time. My best barometer is her, actually. If she's happy, then I know I'm doing my part. I'm by no means perfect, but I'm willing to work. For her. That's how I convince myself that I love her.

 

[FallaciaSonata]

I have to agree with that. Although I have little experience in this particular realm, I still find those definitions to be the most easily understood.

To me, I would imagine (key word, imagine) that love is a form of devotion and commitment. Like anything else in life, you love what you spend your time doing, what you invest your time/energy/money and entire being into.

....so I guess if a woman meets those criteria, then I guess I'm "in love".

 

[IZthe411]

If I were in his situation....





On another note, (this may or may not be helpful) I have noticed that there are certain people I am compelled to talk to, and I don't know if it would be out of morbid curiosity, or what, but I find that I generally dislike them. But I still want to know how they think, and what makes them tick. Even though I don't like their way of doing things.

I'm the same way. It's weird.

 

[IZthe411]

+ 1. I'm an ISTJ and I have had friends and family members ask me that in the past too ("how did you feel when we weren't hanging out?"). And I've replied "I was fine" on more than one occasion as well. In my case, it didn't have anything to do with how much I cared for the person. Usually when a person is gone and I'm doing other things then I'm occupied with those other things. Then when the person comes back and we hang out again, I'll think to myself "I love spending time with him/her!"

However, if it's a person I'm romantically interested in...I do tend to keep that person in the back of my mind always. But still, I would be functioning normally while they were gone and therefore might still reply "I was fine" in complete honesty. As in "I was fine (i.e. not an emotional wreck) while you were gone, but I'm glad to be spending time with you now that you're here again".

Again, this is how I am. I think some people take it that you don't care if you don't actively think about that person, meaning, some people will think of a person and email them/call them to say they were thinking them. As an ISTJ I will think about you, a good thought, but then carry on with whatever is in front of me.

I think we have to spell these little nuances out to our SOs so that they are aware that it's nature and nothing else.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Amusing... Enneagram 6 people. Doubting their own emotions since there's nothing else to compare it against.

You can love someone very much, but is it in love with the person? One can be applied to very deep friendship, the other is seen as being romantic. When you say you are happy with the idea of getting married with someone, is that the same thing as saying you want to get married with someone? It doesn't feel like it.

You can devote your life towards someone, because it's easy to do so. But is that really what you want to do? Or because it's already there. =O

Enneagram 6 musings xD

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Exactly and how does one go about figuring out which they stand for? Or do they never?