[MBTI General] Differences between ISFJ and ISTJ?

[FallaciaSonata]

I find raz and Giggly's T/F conflict to be rather....amusing.

 

[d@v3]

Hmm.... I tend to like ISFJ's. They tend to take my ISTJ pride and turn it into humbleness when necessary.

 

[Lambchop]

At the time in which I had written that, I was under the influence of....more testosterone than my brain could handle. I admit that --- logic wasn't in total reign there. I know her a little better now, (we don't hang out or anything --- I don't really "do" that, except on rare occasions with my close friends) and I know that her response was neither acceptance nor refusal. I'm pretty sure she's a T....she and I both suffer from "I think I'm right" disease. ; )

Besides....I'm not really worried about getting advice from others. I learn quite a bit from reading and watching my peers go through one girlfriend after another. I have a great advantage in this area --- if a girl doesn't like me, I can always just find someone else. I don't have to have them. I know it may sound cold, but the sad reality is there's a lot of people out there, and therefore other options. Oh, the joy....

Yes. Sarcasm is awesome. Love that stuff --- it's as addicting as the piano and the organ.

And that depends.....being my age, and getting that, and wanting to hug me. Here's the thing. I've noticed a trend in girls that I've liked (not asked out or spoken to, just liked). They're always older than me, and this particular one by a margin of about three years. I would have awkwardly accepted a hug, but it would have been worse if you thought, "aw that's cute coming from a little kid" as opposed to "aw that's cute because I like the guy". Not sure if that made sense.

Remember, you're not totally T-less here. You can get to know us very easily. Don't you do Ti a lot? Well, if you do, you're halfway there. That's one of my ISTP Dad's better functions.

Fun stuff, hm?

Sonata, I don't look at you as a little kid -- it totally blows my mind that you are 18. You are smarter and more mature than my ex-fiance, I swear..and he was 42 when I ditched him! Whoever you end up with...will be a lucky person indeed!

I apparently do Ti alot...and I'm still trying to figure out what that means! I am hoping I can get a good balance between the T and F. I think that a lot in life can be accomplished by finding a good balance.

Giggly, I love you for standing up for me!

 

[Lambchop]

Hmm.... I tend to like ISFJ's. They tend to take my ISTJ pride and turn it into humbleness when necessary.

HA! You always make me laugh! ISFJs like you back.

 

[Lambchop]

I've always thought of feelers as just being incapable of taking their own needs into consideration or just plain being oversensitive for the sake of attention.

Okay Raz....bring it on!

I always thought that thinkers were cold, arrogant and too afraid to show any vulnerability for fear of appearing weak.

You've been weighed, you've been measured..and you've been found wanting...

 

[raz]

Okay Raz....bring it on!

I always thought that thinkers were cold, arrogant and too afraid to show any vulnerability for fear of appearing weak.

You've been weighed, you've been measured..and you've been found wanting...

Umm. I'm not trying to be hostile here. Why are you taking it like that? I have no reason to start a fight here. I was just trying to relate personal experiences. I like being able to elaborate on more of my Thinking philosophies, but I guess it can easily be taken the wrong way.

I think as much as you don't understand Thinkers, I feel the same way but in the exact opposite of Feelers. I think I'm just appearing hostile because I like provoking the difference between Thinkers and Feelers.

What is with your responses, though? It's like you're disregarding my input even though I'm an ISTJ just because I'm appearing rude? Only taking their opinion will make your perception biased and inaccurate. Although, I can't speak for the entire ISTJ population.

 

[Lambchop]

Umm. I'm not trying to be hostile here. Why are you taking it like that? I have no reason to start a fight here. I was just trying to relate personal experiences. I like being able to elaborate on more of my Thinking philosophies, but I guess it can easily be taken the wrong way.

I think as much as you don't understand Thinkers, I feel the same way but in the exact opposite of Feelers. I think I'm just appearing hostile because I like provoking the difference between Thinkers and Feelers.

What is with your responses, though? It's like you're disregarding my input even though I'm an ISTJ just because I'm appearing rude? Only taking their opinion will make your perception biased and inaccurate. Although, I can't speak for the entire ISTJ population.

I was actually just kidding with my last post...trying to lighten the mood. Apparently, that didn't work.

I am not ignoring your input - I'm sorry if it's being perceived that way. I should point out again that I'm new with this and if I suck at it, I'm sorry. Like Giggly said, I'm only trying to learn. If I'm clumsy at it, it's not on purpose.

To answer your question in a logical way though - it is off putting to me...to receive responses coined in a "rude" manner. Maybe that's my feeling side and it's conflicting with your thinking side. :redface: It feels like your words are conflicting with your attitude...like if someone came into my office in the morning and said "Good morning!".....only in a really rude tone. I would ignore the words and focus on the tone.

 

[raz]

I just don't understand what constitutes rudeness. The only perceptions of rude that I have are from observing other people's conflicts. I mean, if someone says something that's intentionally hurtful, but then I try to adjust, because I suddenly can't take everything they say as seriously as before because they're trying to invoke a personal response.

The problems I usually run into when dealing with other people are:

- Not taking into consideration what I'm actually capable of when telling me something to do
- Expecting me to socialize when I don't want to, but I feel obligated to
- Taking advantage of me by having me do something just because I'm skilled at it, rather than genuinely appreciating my unique skill
- Having to adjust myself to the level of competence of another person just because they're being lazy
- Being patronized because something unique to my situation is something that apparently identifies my worth as a human being
- Other people being obsessed with "having a good time" and failing to understand that that means something different to different people

Those are the things that immediately come to mind. Usually if someone does any of those things, I don't let myself get riled up over it. I see other people complaining like, "I can't believe he did that to me! How can she say that kind of thing to me?" I just don't do that. If someone does something of that nature, I just automatically tell myself that they're just not worth my time and it's not worth getting upset over. I mean, what would I be accomplishing by being hurt from someone being inconsiderate toward me? I have more important things to have on my mind. It's just a waste of time.

I just see a lot of other people take things as hurtful when it's really VERY superficial conversation. A random person throughout the day says something inconsiderate? In 2 hours, I'll forget they existed. Well, maybe not because Si is impressive like that. I'd most of the time just think of a logical retort to them to prove that they're being emotional and nothing more. However, then I'd spend a few seconds justifying actually MAKING the response and usually just nod my head and walk away because it wasn't worth even invoking further conversation.

 

[Lambchop]

I just don't understand what constitutes rudeness. The only perceptions of rude that I have are from observing other people's conflicts. I mean, if someone says something that's intentionally hurtful, but then I try to adjust, because I suddenly can't take everything they say as seriously as before because they're trying to invoke a personal response.

The problems I usually run into when dealing with other people are:

- Not taking into consideration what I'm actually capable of when telling me something to do
- Expecting me to socialize when I don't want to, but I feel obligated to
- Taking advantage of me by having me do something just because I'm skilled at it, rather than genuinely appreciating my unique skill
- Having to adjust myself to the level of competence of another person just because they're being lazy
- Being patronized because something unique to my situation is something that apparently identifies my worth as a human being
- Other people being obsessed with "having a good time" and failing to understand that that means something different to different people

Those are the things that immediately come to mind. Usually if someone does any of those things, I don't let myself get riled up over it. I see other people complaining like, "I can't believe he did that to me! How can she say that kind of thing to me?" I just don't do that. If someone does something of that nature, I just automatically tell myself that they're just not worth my time and it's not worth getting upset over. I mean, what would I be accomplishing by being hurt from someone being inconsiderate toward me? I have more important things to have on my mind. It's just a waste of time.

I just see a lot of other people take things as hurtful when it's really VERY superficial conversation. A random person throughout the day says something inconsiderate? In 2 hours, I'll forget they existed. Well, maybe not because Si is impressive like that. I'd most of the time just think of a logical retort to them to prove that they're being emotional and nothing more. However, then I'd spend a few seconds justifying actually MAKING the response and usually just nod my head and walk away because it wasn't worth even invoking further conversation.

Raz, I am seeing clearly now that there are some major differences in the way that we view life and other people in general. You seem to be better than I am at articulating rationally what goes on inside of you. I found this website on personality types awhile ago...I will have to cut and paste what it says for ISTJs and "what it's like to be me" for you read over and see if you agree with. This is what it listed for an ISFJ and what it's like to be me and it's pretty articulate...maybe that will help illiterate the differences in where we're coming from?

"I like feeling I have helped someone with a concern, helping them figure out, deal with, and resolve the problem, knowing that what I recommended or advised really did help that person.

I am fairly quiet with an easygoing attitude and am modest to some extent. I do not mind being alone, although I do like to be with people too. I like having friends, and family is the most important thing in my life. I am a reluctant leader—I like to have some say in things and I am glad I am doing it, but if things go well with someone else as leader, then that doesn’t bother me. Privacy is important, though it’s nice to be thought of well by others. I like to have some independence; to be able to come and go as I please is nice.

I am dependable and conscientious. I have a big sense of obligation with work. Doing a good job is really important to me. Give me specifics and a plan on how you want me to do it. Brainstorming is generally harder—it’s a skill to acquire. I prefer to work by myself without distractions because I like things done a certain way. It’s taken me a while to learn that my work is much better quality when I’m drawing from those who see things differently. They help keep up my enthusiasm. And I get upset when work backs up—and it probably takes me longer than most people to do something because I am so thorough. But when I have learned a lot about what I do, I think I get the job done much faster and I can make difficult work look easy. I cannot stand people not doing their best job. I do what I say I’m going to do and stick with it until it’s done. And I can find myself overcommitted. It’s important to me to be able to say “Okay, this is enough responsibility for now, I don’t have to climb that ladder at any cost.”

Organization has always been a real strength. I do it all internally, in my head. I am fairly detail oriented and a very structured person. I have to have things in a certain place, with a plan and things prioritized, so I can leave things and pick up the next day where I left off. Being structured is a natural thing with me, to want to have things set.

I dislike conflict. I really care about treating people with a lot of respect. It’s an emotional drain when I have to deal with different opinions and reconcile everyone. I give an opinion based on what I think is fair and what’s been done in the past. What’s decided for one person shouldn’t be really any different than for another. I respect that people are certainly entitled to feel the way they feel, but in working or living together, decisions have to be made and things have to go a certain way. I need positive feedback that I’m doing a good job and that my opinions are similar to the opinions of others, to hear, “Yes, I think that same thing.” I worry when there’s disagreement. I question myself. I’ve learned to challenge what I don’t feel is right, especially if someone does something to me that I don’t feel I would have done to that person.

Anything really major in life can take forever to decide. I look to what matters to people, talk to them and get their ideas, then put it all together into something that satisfies everyone. I am more comfortable preparing first and then starting something, after I’ve pictured it in my mind, rehearsed it, and perfected it. I feel I do a good job expressing myself when I have a chance to prepare, although I do better in reflection. Answering questions on the spur of the moment can be hard too. I will take something minor and get all freaked out when it’s nothing to get upset about. I’m very methodical and prefer things to be laid out. If it’s a problem with me and another person, I can analyze the situation endlessly until I talk to the person again and straighten it out.

I consider myself adaptable to anyone. I feel that a lot of people think I am a nice person, and because I was always there for them in the past and willing to help, they try to take advantage of me. But as long as you are doing something okay with your life, then you are okay with me.

I need acknowledgment from people who I really care about. Compliments can be embarrassing face to face, though. A paycheck is nice recognition too. I like a day when everything works really well, when I get a lot done, people respond very positively and there is a lot of laughter. I have an unusual sense of humor, and I like laughter."

I'm sure Giggly and some other ISFJs could say how well this relates to them...but I can relate to it a lot.

I judge a lot of things in life based on how I FEEL about them. That's just who I am. I don't always REACT based on how I feel, but when something comes up, the first thing I ask myself is "How do I feel about this?" I am also interested in how other people feel. I now understand the saying "That's just how I am" more than ever.

I can relate to you in some of the things you said though. My husband (who is an INFP) likes to make fun of the fact that sometimes I base whether or not I choose to keep other people in my life on whether or not I have "any use" for them. I can also relate to your statements about your conflicts with others than I experience as well - "Expecting me to socialize when I don't want to, but I feel obligated to", "Having to adjust myself to the level of competence of another person just because they're being lazy" and "Other people being obsessed with "having a good time" and failing to understand that that means something different to different people." It really depends on who the person is as to whether or not I...as you put it...allow myself to get riled up over it. Unfortunately for me, it also depends on the time of month..which would be impossible for you to relate to.

I will see if I can find the site that lists the ISTJs version of "what it's like to be me" and post it.

 

[Lambchop]

ISTJs - "what it's like to be me"

I think for the most part I try to make my life pretty structured, and one thing that other people can depend on is that I have a very strong sense of duty.

I’m a team player but I work best with some time alone. I like it when everything is laid out and I can just concentrate on doing the job. I hate it when I don’t know where I am going, and I like feedback so I know I’m on the right track. If part of the job entails ambiguity, that’s fine just as long as the goal is to reduce ambiguity. I like being financially secure with the bills paid on time so my family can enjoy the things that we like to do. I like to have a fallback plan. I do like to laugh and have fun too, but work is more important to me, and then I make my little jokes. I always think I have to get my work done before I can go out or go home, when I can just sit down and relax without anything hanging over my head. I take responsibility seriously, and if I’m going to put my name on something, my desire is to insure it’s as good as it can be.

A sense of right and wrong is extremely important, and I will not just stand by and watch people doing things wrong. It really tears me apart. I tend to want things in order and people doing the right things. I want to have some rules. I always wanted to please people, and a safe environment to me is where I don’t have to compete with anyone else’s wishes. If I get into a situation where I feel very strongly and can’t articulate the words or can’t win, I just don’t say anything. I tend to put up with conflict rather than deal with it. I try to deal with stress, but I am not necessarily a good confronter. I would like to be more of a stress avoider.

I find myself duty bound sometimes and find that I do things because of what’s expected of me. People can trust and count on me, and I am very dependable, almost to a fault. I strive to keep balance between work and home, and if I’m going to provide for my family I’m going to have to swallow some things at work. When I see families that really want to be together, that’s a relationship that those people worked at for many years to achieve. Being a friend means caring enough about an individual to call them to see how they are doing, and if I can see someone has held true to their word, then they’ve probably gained my trust. If you were to ask me to define the word love, you would get responses like caring, responsibility, and loyalty.

I am a very private person and I don’t like a lot of attention. Although I enjoy being with people, observing them, and just being a part of the group, I really like some solitude. People who don’t know me perceive me as pretty formal and rigid, and then I’ll get out of character and people don’t know how to deal with that. They misinterpret my subtle sense of humor. I do have some ability to improvise every once in a while. I take a lot of pleasure in the simple things.

With a problem, I will try to look at all the parts and line them up to insure I don’t miss something. I have to force myself to look at the big picture and solve it before I can say, “Yes, this is going to work.” I’m not the idea person, but if I have experience I will give my opinion about how I think it should be done. If it’s new, I am very much apt to sit back and take it all in and sit on it and think about it. I try to catch myself, but it’s so unnatural for me to see the good side of things, and turning around my perspective takes a lot out of me. I want a rock-solid case for why I feel the way I do. A lot of my ideas are very practical, not theoretical—the down-to-earth stuff people really need to know. Sometimes when people don’t see my point, I tend to withdraw or stand back.

I can’t stand people who don’t care for others, who are irresponsible or rude, who shoot their mouth off without knowing what they are talking about or who don’t do what they are supposed to do and want something for nothing. I especially can’t tolerate people who don’t take other people’s time or privacy into consideration.

I get up in the morning and do my routine. And I take time at the end of each day to try to plan what’s happening the next day, what I’m going to be working on first, second, third, and so on through out the day, to eliminate the unexpected. Sometimes I might carry a book or something in case I have to wait somewhere. That makes life easy and full. Stability is important to me and change may not be that easy, but variety is good too. I seek advice when I need to change.

From bestfittype.com. Does this sound like you ISTJs?

 

[d@v3]

^Yup, sounds like me to a T. However... it really depends on who the attention is coming from. I certainly do not like to be the "center of attention" of a group, but if it is a special someone... I can make an exception.

We are also pretty rigid, I don't mean in a bad way though.

 

[Bubbles]

Hmm. I think there's major differences between the two types. One of my best friends in the world is an ISFJ, and we come off as very similar to the people around us. Her boyfriend even declared "she's just like you," and just like that we burst into a fit of giggles because it's not true. At all. But it's interesting, because her boyfriend (one letter off her as ISTJ) and I would never be so confused.

An ISFJ is concerned with keeping those around them happy, comfortable, and out of conflict. But they're also concerned with keeping things in order, and can be quite stubborn! ISTJs share that SJ stubborness, but sometimes they're less into keeping the mood light and more into...well, I have yet to be able to fully describe what ISTJs are into. However I blame that on our constant miscommunication. But ISTJs seem to have this huge deal about being "hard-working" and "able to provide." Lord knows the ones I've met go on and on about that.

 

[luminous beam]

one gives a shit and the other doesn't? lol

 

[raz]

I want to reply to that Lambchops, but my math class just drained all of my energy completely. I need some time to recharge. I'll read over that later. I already know a lot about ISFJs. Right now I'm just trying to understand where people with Fe are coming from rather than disregarding them as just disregarding me.

Sighface. Computer lab part of my math class is so exhausting. We go over to the computers in the class to work on an assignment, and it's like, 2 minutes later, I'm completely drained, yet I can sit at home in front of my laptop for HOURS. It's like a VERY extraverted version of a computer lab. ><

 

[SubjectA]

There is no "problem." I just want to understand the differences...or understand ISTJs better.

I have two very important men in my life. One, my father, is an ISTJ, and my fiance is an ISFJ.

When I first met my fiance I thought "Wow. They're exactly alike." But after getting to know him I realize how different they are. Very similar, but not the same. This probably explains why him and my father get along so well.

For instance, Dad isn't very good at giving any emotional support. As in he flat out doesn't know what to do. Also, Dad's a very rigid and serious person. He doesn't really know how to let loose and have fun. He's also pretty good at covering up his emotions. He almost never cries, and when he does it's a little scary and for a very good reason. At work he's a bit of a hard ass, and has made a couple of his female employees cry before. But he's also able to remain pretty calm in bad situations...sort of. He might yell a lot but he never really loses his head.

My fiance is much better at giving emotional support. He's genuinely concerned about how the people he cares about are feeling. And he often jokes and isn't serious much. I'm not sure if this is typical of ISFJ's though. He jokes a lot especially when he's nervous or when he's trying to console someone. He's not good at covering up his emotions. He doesn't often say why he's feeling a certain way, but it's easy to see when he's upset. He doesn't cry a lot, but still more than my father does, especially when he's very happy (i.e. when his niece was born.) He tends to lose his head when things go wrong. He begins to get nervous and sometimes panics. And though he can make objective decisions, he sometimes has a hard time doing it. I can just tell that his thought process is rather subjective.

 

[Lambchop]

Is that YOUR picture, Subject A? I always love it when I see it...it's very pretty and unique.

 

[FallaciaSonata]

I hope that isn't *your* picture, Lambchop. I'd have to put you in my list of strange looking anime-like people.

 

[SubjectA]

Is that YOUR picture, Subject A? I always love it when I see it...it's very pretty and unique.

Nah. I wish I had the clothes though.

 

[Giggly]

I'm sure Giggly and some other ISFJs could say how well this relates to them...but I can relate to it a lot.

I judge a lot of things in life based on how I FEEL about them. That's just who I am. I don't always REACT based on how I feel, but when something comes up, the first thing I ask myself is "How do I feel about this?" I am also interested in how other people feel. I now understand the saying "That's just how I am" more than ever.

Yeah, I naturally filter everything through my feelings first too.

My fiance is much better at giving emotional support. He's genuinely concerned about how the people he cares about are feeling. And he often jokes and isn't serious much. I'm not sure if this is typical of ISFJ's though. He jokes a lot especially when he's nervous or when he's trying to console someone. He's not good at covering up his emotions. He doesn't often say why he's feeling a certain way, but it's easy to see when he's upset. He doesn't cry a lot, but still more than my father does, especially when he's very happy (i.e. when his niece was born.) He tends to lose his head when things go wrong. He begins to get nervous and sometimes panics. And though he can make objective decisions, he sometimes has a hard time doing it. I can just tell that his thought process is rather subjective.

He sounds a lot like me except that I cry a lot more.

I find raz and Giggly's T/F conflict to be rather....amusing.

I would have more T/F conflicts with raz but he gets too emotional.

 

[slant]

ISTJ
Dom: Si, Introverted sensing
Aux: Te, Extraverted Thinking
Ter: Fi, Introverted feeling
Inf: Ne, Extraverted Intuition



ISFJ
Dom: Si, Introverted Sensing
Aux: Fe, Extraverted Feeling
Ter: Ti, Introverted Thinking
Inf: Ne, Extraverted Intuition