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  1. #21
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    I was working at his desk when he was on vacation for a week, and I had to check his e-mails. I came across a few between he and his wife and compared them to e-mails between me and my husband...

    It was REALLY weird to me to see such formal e-mails!

    How are ISTJs with their significant others? Not that I care about that with my boss, but I'm just curious now. Are you affectionate? Or does your logic carry over in relationships? If you aren't emotional, why would you even get married?

    I look forward to your responses!
    I think that's a very strong display of your Fe side. You are interested in his personal life, and you are comparing his relationships into your own, and looking for what's the standard there. This is what we ISTJs don't do.

    You asked earlier why ISTJs are hesitant to complement anyone... For me, there's few reasons for it:

    - I expect that people do what they are asked to do. I expect people to do their duties, and when someone does what they should do, why complement them? They did what they were supposed to do, and that's it.

    - By default, I compare everything to a perfection. So, when I review something, I point out things that aren't perfect, in order to show what could be improved to reach the perfection.

    So, if I make no critique, it's either because I'm totally satisfied with the result, or I'm thinking that you can't take any critique. Or I'm not interested on the issue at hand. But if I'm only pointing out one detail, and giving you a detailed opinion how to fix it, you are probably doing something very very right. I'm always looking for how to improve things, and I don't invest my time on things that aren't worth doing better.

    - By complementing others, I put myself in a position of admirer, which is a lower position than one of admiree's (not probably a word. ). I don't like lowering myself in favor of someone else. That's why I never had any idols or favorite celebrities. They are just people, and not any better than myself. Having an idol is like acknowledging that those individuals are exceptional, and I'm just an ordinary person who could never achieve what they have achieved. That's probably my inferior Fi talking. It makes me headstrong and stubborn.

    But by now I've noticed this habit, and I make acknowledge effort to complement people when they do a good job.


    So, how do you get ISTJ open to you? Well, it's not going to be easy and fast, but here's how I feel about this.. first of all, you need to be considered as a worthy person. You need to be:

    - Loyal: Can't really stress this. If I have even a slightest of doubt that you could be spreading any details of my inner life to someone else, I would not open to you.

    - Steady: I don't trust people who aren't steady. And by steady I mean IJ kind of behavior. You have to have "think before you act"-kinda mindset.

    - Non-Judgmental: There's lots of stuff going in my head, that might strongly affect the opinion people have of me. So if you would judge me directly for the thoughts I'm having, I wouldn't trust me.

    - Considerate: Whatever I tell you, shouldn't ever be used against me. I hate people who spread malicious rumors and reveal secret to get at me. I very much despite people who are after revenge.

    So, that about covers the basis of what kind people I might trust. Now, the next thing is to make this personal opening meaningful. Why would I open myself for someone? I'm not really looking out to connect with people. And even if I was, I wouldn't need to reveal much of my inner world anyways.

    So what gets me open? I don't know... maybe some kind of special connection I feel... a feeling that we share something common. It's very hard to describe, and as there's only very few selected people that know me inside, I really haven't found out what's the pattern for that. But I think IFJ kind of people get to know me better than any other types.

    But just some common this for your workplace:
    - Work hard
    - Be trustworthy
    - Be competent
    - Be punctual
    - Don't be whiny

    That will probably make you look good in front of a ISTJ boss. But to get him open for you... that might require some special situation in which he would need to open up. Maybe if you'd tell him something first... to break the ice and make it socially acceptable to share your private life at the workplace. But there lies a huge risk, as some people (particularally ISTJs) tend to wear this mask at their workplace. They are not the same person at work as they are at home. You know the saying "after work comes play".. that means no playing at the workplace. And if you open up on your private life, they might view you as having problems separating your work and your private life. That's especially true in a situation of a conservative boss and a female employee.

    But anyways... there are some many kinds of ISTJs out there, and it's very difficult to say what this ISTJ is like. But you can trust on your common ISJ-properties! Your Te and Fe might conflict at times, so remember where's the common ground and work from there.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  2. #22
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    If you aren't emotional, why would you even get married?
    That's a good way to get me emotional. Question my ability to care about someone because I don't carry myself in the manner you expect? However, the logic still comes into play there. I won't be physically emotional about your comment because I care more about my own control over my emotional outbursts than getting revenge on someone. So, I'll iterate a bit on it.

    First off, to me, a relationship with another person isn't about the dating experience. It's not about the physical affection. It's about the close bond between two people. I want a relationship because I want to feel intensely for another person in a way that promotes stability, trust, loyalty and reliability. It's more of that when I think about a relationship, I'm more of a knight in shining armor about it. My significant other is my best friend, the one person I care equally about as I do myself. I display supportive actions toward their life *because* I care so deeply about their well-being.

    Habba, you really said a lot in the first half of that post that I think about daily. It's pointless to compliment someone on something they were expected to do, and I also am hesitant to compliment someone because it puts them at a higher level than me.

    It's not that we don't approve of emotions. We just value control over our emotions. Honestly, it just became something I started doing when I was in middle school that I realized how much it meant to me to work on controlling my emotional outbursts and weighing my actions. That doesn't mean I can't display emotions. I want to show my feelings for other people just as much as others, but I want to direct it and make it impactful. The person I'm aiming it toward deserves something meaningful if I care about them.


  3. #23
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    I think that's a very strong display of your Fe side. You are interested in his personal life, and you are comparing his relationships into your own, and looking for what's the standard there. This is what we ISTJs don't do.

    You asked earlier why ISTJs are hesitant to complement anyone... For me, there's few reasons for it:

    - I expect that people do what they are asked to do. I expect people to do their duties, and when someone does what they should do, why complement them? They did what they were supposed to do, and that's it.

    - By default, I compare everything to a perfection. So, when I review something, I point out things that aren't perfect, in order to show what could be improved to reach the perfection.

    So, if I make no critique, it's either because I'm totally satisfied with the result, or I'm thinking that you can't take any critique. Or I'm not interested on the issue at hand. But if I'm only pointing out one detail, and giving you a detailed opinion how to fix it, you are probably doing something very very right. I'm always looking for how to improve things, and I don't invest my time on things that aren't worth doing better.

    - By complementing others, I put myself in a position of admirer, which is a lower position than one of admiree's (not probably a word. ). I don't like lowering myself in favor of someone else. That's why I never had any idols or favorite celebrities. They are just people, and not any better than myself. Having an idol is like acknowledging that those individuals are exceptional, and I'm just an ordinary person who could never achieve what they have achieved. That's probably my inferior Fi talking. It makes me headstrong and stubborn.

    But by now I've noticed this habit, and I make acknowledge effort to complement people when they do a good job.


    So, how do you get ISTJ open to you? Well, it's not going to be easy and fast, but here's how I feel about this.. first of all, you need to be considered as a worthy person. You need to be:

    - Loyal: Can't really stress this. If I have even a slightest of doubt that you could be spreading any details of my inner life to someone else, I would not open to you.

    - Steady: I don't trust people who aren't steady. And by steady I mean IJ kind of behavior. You have to have "think before you act"-kinda mindset.

    - Non-Judgmental: There's lots of stuff going in my head, that might strongly affect the opinion people have of me. So if you would judge me directly for the thoughts I'm having, I wouldn't trust me.

    - Considerate: Whatever I tell you, shouldn't ever be used against me. I hate people who spread malicious rumors and reveal secret to get at me. I very much despite people who are after revenge.

    So, that about covers the basis of what kind people I might trust. Now, the next thing is to make this personal opening meaningful. Why would I open myself for someone? I'm not really looking out to connect with people. And even if I was, I wouldn't need to reveal much of my inner world anyways.

    So what gets me open? I don't know... maybe some kind of special connection I feel... a feeling that we share something common. It's very hard to describe, and as there's only very few selected people that know me inside, I really haven't found out what's the pattern for that. But I think IFJ kind of people get to know me better than any other types.

    But just some common this for your workplace:
    - Work hard
    - Be trustworthy
    - Be competent
    - Be punctual
    - Don't be whiny

    That will probably make you look good in front of a ISTJ boss. But to get him open for you... that might require some special situation in which he would need to open up. Maybe if you'd tell him something first... to break the ice and make it socially acceptable to share your private life at the workplace. But there lies a huge risk, as some people (particularally ISTJs) tend to wear this mask at their workplace. They are not the same person at work as they are at home. You know the saying "after work comes play".. that means no playing at the workplace. And if you open up on your private life, they might view you as having problems separating your work and your private life. That's especially true in a situation of a conservative boss and a female employee.

    But anyways... there are some many kinds of ISTJs out there, and it's very difficult to say what this ISTJ is like. But you can trust on your common ISJ-properties! Your Te and Fe might conflict at times, so remember where's the common ground and work from there.
    This is fantastic information --- thanks so much!!

  4. #24
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Lambchop, my boss is also ISTJ. ISTJs are, by far, my favorite type of boss to have. As long as you do your work (the way he wants it done), show up on time, really help him become more efficient, and not have emotional break downs at work, he will keep you around forever and pay you well.

    Also, when you told him you were taking that class, he may have thought you were planning on just using this job as a stepping stone and not planning staying, whereas, he's looking for someone to stick around for a while. He's probably still skeptical and guarded about it too.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Lambchop, my boss is also ISTJ. ISTJs are, by far, my favorite type of boss to have. As long as you do your work (the way he wants it done), show up on time, really help him become more efficient, and not have emotional break downs at work, he will keep you around forever and pay you well.

    Also, when you told him you were taking that class, he may have thought you were planning on just using this job as a stepping stone and not planning staying, whereas, he's looking for someone to stick around for a while. He's probably still skeptical and guarded about it too.
    Oh, so great to know you can relate..my friend! This is good information to know!

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    That's a good way to get me emotional. Question my ability to care about someone because I don't carry myself in the manner you expect? However, the logic still comes into play there. I won't be physically emotional about your comment because I care more about my own control over my emotional outbursts than getting revenge on someone. So, I'll iterate a bit on it.

    First off, to me, a relationship with another person isn't about the dating experience. It's not about the physical affection. It's about the close bond between two people. I want a relationship because I want to feel intensely for another person in a way that promotes stability, trust, loyalty and reliability. It's more of that when I think about a relationship, I'm more of a knight in shining armor about it. My significant other is my best friend, the one person I care equally about as I do myself. I display supportive actions toward their life *because* I care so deeply about their well-being.

    Habba, you really said a lot in the first half of that post that I think about daily. It's pointless to compliment someone on something they were expected to do, and I also am hesitant to compliment someone because it puts them at a higher level than me.

    It's not that we don't approve of emotions. We just value control over our emotions. Honestly, it just became something I started doing when I was in middle school that I realized how much it meant to me to work on controlling my emotional outbursts and weighing my actions. That doesn't mean I can't display emotions. I want to show my feelings for other people just as much as others, but I want to direct it and make it impactful. The person I'm aiming it toward deserves something meaningful if I care about them.
    Hmmm... The tone of your posts always give me a little pause, Raz. You sound irritated in them to me. Forgive my ignorance of ISTJs. I am only trying to understand...and if I get it wrong, I don't mean to offend.

    I am still curious about your need to be at a higher level than others? I don't really understand that. Also, although others may be "expected" to do what they are told -- do you not agree with the saying that "honey attracts more bees than vinegar?" Compliments do not make me feel like I'm at a higher level than anyone...they simply motivate me to work HARDER. (I rarely, if ever put myself on any kind of level with other people...everyone is equal in my eyes...nobody is better than anyone else...that confuses me.)

    It's not that my boss never compliments me, because he does. And he will mention it if a client makes a positive remark about me, etc. I like that he sends them via e-mail too, because it would embarrass me if he were to do it face to face.

    Why do you value control over your emotions? Did something happen in middle school or was that just when you decided you liked to keep them under control?

    I'm assuming you don't have children, since you said your relationship would be the person you care about as equally as you do yourself. You must think very highly of yourself.

    Do you ever think about what you are going to think about when you're lying on your death bed? I often do...to make sure my priorities in life are in line, so that hopefully I don't die with any regrets. Do you ever think about your purpose in life...about what you want to leave behind when you die?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Habba,

    I admire you. And I'm not afraid to say it. I think it's very kind of you to share yourself and your thoughts with me. I now understand that developing a "closer" relationship with him will take time, as you said.

    I love that you didn't judge me for looking in his e-mail too. Screw keeping emotions under control...I want to hug you!

  8. #28
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallaciaSonata View Post
    All right. I don't think it's strange that you'd want to be "closer" to your boss, because I can see the rationale behind that. Just as you said, by knowing each other (and your strengths/weaknesses) you can become/create a better team. However, I don't personally get close to people "just because". As I'm sure you've imagined, there has to be a logical reason for doing so.

    I hate to rain on the parade, but if and when I do open up to someone, it isn't overnight. And not over a few weeks either. For me, it's a couple of years. (For my two closest friends, that was about the time frame.) This I think varies depending on how private the person is in general, or perhaps their level of introversion.

    Ah...the ISTJ sense of humor. My favorite. Here is a link to another thread that has a very, very good explanation of it, but I'll also provide a quick summary of my own.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...stj-humor.html

    My jokes are mostly situational based, and generally require the listener to know about something else in order to make the connection and "catch the humor". For example.....I have an "inside" joke with one of my friends, where certain phrases are used. Unless you know the origin of the phrases, which only we do, you would think of us as weirdos.

    For others, I rely heavily on sarcasm. There's a bit of truth in each one, but they're usually just pessimistic one-liners I drop into other people's conversations. It has the appearance of being spontaneous, but all I'm really doing is relying on my inner-library of sarcastic one-liners. (Half of them are my own, the rest I steal from Dad. Heh.) Sometimes I can just spout something out though, and it turns out great.

    As for your last question, the one about significant others, I do not believe I am qualified to answer that. I've only had one "girlfriend", and that was when I was fourteen. I don't really count that one. Dating isn't really my thing --- I don't have time for that right now.

    Added:

    Should probably mention the last time I "asked someone out". It was someone I knew to a decent degree, figured it would work, she being a super-introvert like myself, and.....well, I actually wrote down all the logical reasons I thought it would work and then I composed....a small paper consisting of that and a proposal to get to know each other. I half expected her to turn away immediately, but instead she politely declined with the same rationale I would use today --- "I'm not really dating right now". And I know from observation that she's in a similar boat like me, too, in that sense. She hasn't *ever* dated. Never been asked out before either. Hm.
    You poor, poor thing Sonata!! You gave someone a proposal to ask them out?? Do you have any friends that are girls...that could give you advice? I can't imagine what I would do in that situation. You are soo cute!! Don't worry..it will get better and easier.

    By the way, I DO appreciate your sense of humor. I have read your posts and chuckled and I very much appreciate a sarcastic sense of humor! I enjoy all kinds of humor, but I love sarcasm. My boss is somewhat sarcastic too. I think he is really funny and I told him that today.

    The only guys in my life that I've ever been close to...have been fellow F's...I just realized that. My ex-husband, ex-fiance and current husband are all F's. I wonder how I would be...dating a T? I'm imagining now, being your age and getting your little proposal. I would probably think it was adorable and want to hug you. That might make you uncomfortable?

    Sorry if I'm just hopeless at understanding T's....

  9. #29
    Senior Member FallaciaSonata's Avatar
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    At the time in which I had written that, I was under the influence of....more testosterone than my brain could handle. I admit that --- logic wasn't in total reign there. I know her a little better now, (we don't hang out or anything --- I don't really "do" that, except on rare occasions with my close friends) and I know that her response was neither acceptance nor refusal. I'm pretty sure she's a T....she and I both suffer from "I think I'm right" disease. ; )

    Besides....I'm not really worried about getting advice from others. I learn quite a bit from reading and watching my peers go through one girlfriend after another. I have a great advantage in this area --- if a girl doesn't like me, I can always just find someone else. I don't have to have them. I know it may sound cold, but the sad reality is there's a lot of people out there, and therefore other options. Oh, the joy....

    Yes. Sarcasm is awesome. Love that stuff --- it's as addicting as the piano and the organ.

    And that depends.....being my age, and getting that, and wanting to hug me. Here's the thing. I've noticed a trend in girls that I've liked (not asked out or spoken to, just liked). They're always older than me, and this particular one by a margin of about three years. I would have awkwardly accepted a hug, but it would have been worse if you thought, "aw that's cute coming from a little kid" as opposed to "aw that's cute because I like the guy". Not sure if that made sense.

    Remember, you're not totally T-less here. You can get to know us very easily. Don't you do Ti a lot? Well, if you do, you're halfway there. That's one of my ISTP Dad's better functions.

    Fun stuff, hm?

    Always remember to flank your enemies. History won't remember how dramatic your failed frontal assault looked. - Dragon Age: Origins

  10. #30
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    Hmmm... The tone of your posts always give me a little pause, Raz. You sound irritated in them to me. Forgive my ignorance of ISTJs. I am only trying to understand...and if I get it wrong, I don't mean to offend.

    I think I'm just irritated in general. ;P It's not you. I'm just going through a period right now also where I'm trying learn where my Thinking stands in relation to everything else in my life. As much as you are trying to understand T's right now, I am equally lost in understanding F's, especially FJs. I have *no* idea how Fe works besides what I've read in books. Taking people into consideration for your actions unless you directly care about them? That goes right over my head.

    I am still curious about your need to be at a higher level than others? I don't really understand that. Also, although others may be "expected" to do what they are told -- do you not agree with the saying that "honey attracts more bees than vinegar?" Compliments do not make me feel like I'm at a higher level than anyone...they simply motivate me to work HARDER. (I rarely, if ever put myself on any kind of level with other people...everyone is equal in my eyes...nobody is better than anyone else...that confuses me.)

    I've never heard that saying before. I don't want to be at a higher level than others just for the sake of being arrogant. It's a fine line of being on par with others. I don't want to be above others because arrogance is a trait that gets off on fake confidence. I don't want to be below others because it makes me feel inferior. Compliments to me are only affirmations that I'm doing my job correctly. If something is the norm, then it's pointless to applaud someone for doing it. If you do something that's expected of you by default, then to me it's only a pre-requisite for the things that actually matter.


    It's not that my boss never compliments me, because he does. And he will mention it if a client makes a positive remark about me, etc. I like that he sends them via e-mail too, because it would embarrass me if he were to do it face to face.

    Why do you value control over your emotions? Did something happen in middle school or was that just when you decided you liked to keep them under control?

    I value control over my emotions because I don't like something else controlling my actions. My emotions have the ability to cause me to do something that goes against my rational judgment so they became something that I worked to keep in check. It's also that as I grew up, I was surrounded by people that also worked off the same philosophy that emotional control meant you were just...a better person. It just became the norm for me and honestly, I just feel more competent if I'm able to put my emotions through a rational filter.

    I'm assuming you don't have children, since you said your relationship would be the person you care about as equally as you do yourself. You must think very highly of yourself.

    No. I don't have children. The way I see is that I am the only constant in my life. I am the only person I can trust completely. Call me cynical or arrogant, but I just have a hard time being able to put someone else's needs over my own. I'm just always on the lookout for ulterior motives. It's another thing that I took on as I grew up, that I am always capable of being tricked because I can't trust everyone to have my best interests in mind.

    Do you ever think about what you are going to think about when you're lying on your death bed? I often do...to make sure my priorities in life are in line, so that hopefully I don't die with any regrets. Do you ever think about your purpose in life...about what you want to leave behind when you die?

    I rarely think about that. Thinking about it now, I would ask myself, "Did I see the goals that meant the most to me through to realization? Was I able to locate something in the world that called upon my true talents to make a difference? Do the people I care about the most know how much I loved them and appreciated their presence in my life? Was I able to maintain my personal integrity throughout my life while still pursuing the things that meant the most to me?"
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