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  1. #11
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    LOL!!!
    I mean, honestly. The only perhaps bad part is when her dad sulks and she doesn't know what she's done, but perhaps he's the oversensitive one. I'd say that if she's an ISFj, you're trying too much to guess and over-analyze her emotions, something she might not love that much.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #12
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briochick View Post
    TheChosenOne: ha, nice sn. The issue with my mom's mbti is that *she* believes she's an istj and she tested as an isxj. The other day I told her she "wasn't always logical or practical," and let me tell you, if looks could kill I'd be dead now. She also tends to not show emotion unless she's throwing a fit (Fine! you don't want to eat my cooking? I'll *never* cook again. I'm a horrible cook! I'm a horrible person. You're a jerk!) or being motherly (oh, sweetheart, I love you, do you want a cookie? a hug?). She makes you guess at her emotions an she's terribly difficult to read. She also doesn't even seem to know what *she* likes or wants most of the time. And, she's analytical. She works in accounting. Does that not sound T-ish?
    Although the accounting and analytical..ness sounds Tish, I have to say that the throwing fits, the poutiness, the overreactions, etc. Sounds more like an unhealthy ISFJ than an ISTJ. I know someone who is very similar to this, and she's ISFJ as far as I know. That's my take on it.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I'd say that if she's an ISFj, you're trying too much to guess and over-analyze her emotions, something she might not love that much.

    +1
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  4. #14
    Junior Member StormySunshine's Avatar
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    My mom is an ISFJ, and I have to agree with some of the others who posted, that yours sounds like one too. It used to be really hard to relate to my mom for all the same reason's you're having. I remember getting a toy for Christmas growing up that I didn't like, and felt strongly she should have known I didn't like it, and I started crying because I was hurt by such a "thoughtless" gift. She threw a tantrum which ranged from yelling to crying to guilt trips, which made me feel like a horrible person. Of course she was playing on my F knowing I was a sensitive person.

    The best way that I've found to deal with her over the years is to have an extremely thick skin around her, and let her have her say. It's very hard at times not to take things personally and can be draining, but I've found that we can have a very good relationship if I do this. I know some would say this is a way to enable an ISFJ's weaknesses, but the way I see it is that she's just venting her frustrations, and doesn't mean it personally. She never even remembers the things she's said to me; I know, I've blown up at her a couple of times, and spouted the stuff she said to me back to her. She has no recollection, and most of the times doesn't even believe she would have said that, even though those things are vivid to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    But if it gets to be too much for me, I might try replacing the idea of purple in her mind with green by showing the same enthusiam for green like I did for purple. (Perhaps now that you are an adult you don't show as much enthusiasm for colors or fluff anymore so she didnt get the green?). I don't know if any of this is a good idea as I tend to be an enabler to people sometimes.
    I've found this really works well with my mom. I think it helps her to mentally prioritize in her mind information about me, and at times she has shown a lot more insight into me than I normally would have expected from her because I used this method.

    As a bit of a silly example, for Christmas, my brother, sister and I all get a certain type of candy. Mine was always mints. One Christmas I was getting really tired of everyone getting me mints, as if that was the only candy I liked, so I told everyone that I liked chocolate covered cherries just as much as mints, and that I would like to get them sometimes. I even made a point of going out and buying chocolate covered cherries, and showing everyone how much I enjoyed them. The next year everybody got me chocolate covered cherries; I had like 10 boxes. The one exception was my mom who got me both, because she knew I liked both equally.

    Of course, she's not always that perceptive, but I've found that I can help her to be better. I don't consider this enabling her, it's just my way of teaching her more about me in a way that she can understand.

    On a side note, our relationship always improves when I'm not around her constantly. I can be more myself, and she doesn't unload on my F as much.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormySunshine View Post
    My mom is an ISFJ, and I have to agree with some of the others who posted, that yours sounds like one too. It used to be really hard to relate to my mom for all the same reason's you're having. I remember getting a toy for Christmas growing up that I didn't like, and felt strongly she should have known I didn't like it, and I started crying because I was hurt by such a "thoughtless" gift. She threw a tantrum which ranged from yelling to crying to guilt trips, which made me feel like a horrible person. Of course she was playing on my F knowing I was a sensitive person.
    I am sorry, but i think that is a really poor example. Can you actually see what you have written.
    You got a toy you didn't like and she should of known. (ok, so you are expecting people to be mind readers). You cried because it was a thoughtless gift. (that is in a sense manipulation)
    You are such an ungrateful person regarding that incident.
    So your actions cause a reaction and you feel like a horrible person.
    (That is some good game playing because it is all about you).

    *tut*
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  6. #16
    Junior Member StormySunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    I am sorry, but i think that is a really poor example. Can you actually see what you have written.
    You got a toy you didn't like and she should of known. (ok, so you are expecting people to be mind readers). You cried because it was a thoughtless gift. (that is in a sense manipulation)
    You are such an ungrateful person regarding that incident.
    So your actions cause a reaction and you feel like a horrible person.
    (That is some good game playing because it is all about you).

    *tut*
    I smiled when I read that because it sounds almost exactly like my mother . And please don't think I'm being sarcastic, because I honestly mean that in a nice way. It goes right along with what we're talking about, SJ's and N's having so many problems communicating and understanding each other.

    That's not the way I expected my words to be interpreted, but maybe I could have stated it better. I guess I'll fall into INTJ mode for a bit to try to explain my reasoning. The quotation marks around the word thoughtless were put there to show that I had perceived that to be thoughtless at that moment, not because she had meant to be thoughtless, but because it seemed to me at that time that she hadn't put a lot of thought into if I'd like it. I had just entered junior high, and all of the kids I went to school with were making fun of that toy, saying it was for little kids, and it was being marketed for little kids. As soon as I saw it, all of those thoughts went through my mind, and I couldn't believe that she knew so little about me as to believe that I wanted a small child's stuffed animal.

    When I said that I cried, I didn't mean I immediately started balling upon opening the gift. I tried holding it in, but when my mom asked me if I liked it, I couldn't any longer. Again, I wasn't so upset because I disliked the gift, but because I felt like she didn't know me. It was an incredibly lonely feeling. I in no way wanted to cry, and I certainly did not do it to gain any sort of attention. On the contrary, I knew what reaction my crying would evoke, and because I hate any form of confrontation, the last thing I wanted was to start one.

    My mom's reaction went way beyond anything that an eleven year old crying over a toy should have evoked. I didn't really want to explain it in detail, partly because it brings back unpleasant memories, but maybe it will help you to understand better. She started out genuinely confused, but when I couldn't explain properly the problem I had it quickly changed to anger. She started yelling that nobody cared about her at all, and no one ever thought about her. All she ever did was give, and everyone just took from her. When I became even more upset, she grabbed my arm, pulled me into the bathroom, and told me to stare into the mirror so that I could see how ugly I was when I cried. She then went back into the living room and cried, saying how she didn't understand why nobody cared about her.

    When I went to leave the bathroom after a couple of minutes, she started screaming that I better stay in front of that mirror until every tear was gone.

    *Edit*
    I suppose if I were to try to explain to an SJ the ways that my mom was loading on my F, it would be something like this:

    She told me I don't care about her. She told me that I don't love her. She told me that I don't care about everything that she has done for me. She told me I never thought about her. She told me I was ugly. She didn't want to touch me. She didn't want to show me that she loved me. She didn't want to comfort me.

    My mom may not be very intuitive, but she is extremely intelligent and analytical, and I believe that she knew exactly what she needed to do to make me feel even worse than she felt, both the things to say, and the things not to do. She can be very vengeful when she's hurt. I admit that I hurt her, but it wasn't because I wanted to. I just wanted that loneliness to go away.
    *End Edit*

    I don't know if you know many INFP's or INFJ's personally, but they are extremely sensitive. Even thinking back to that time has me near tears now. Every single thing that she said was meant to push those emotional triggers in me. You know what the truly ironic thing was? If all she had done was hug me when I started crying, I would have been happy, and would have immediately loved the toy, because then in my mind it wouldn't have been a thoughtless gift, but instead a present from my mom who loved me. She wouldn't have even had to say anything to me. She didn't need to push any emotional triggers in me to make me love her. She's my mom, and that's enough.

    I'm sorry I evoked such strong emotions in you saslou. I guess I'm just more used to being over in the NF area of the forums where everyone instantly intuits what I'm saying. I'll try to be more respectful when I'm in this section in the future, so that there aren't more misunderstandings. I wandered to the SJ section because all of my family are SJ's, and I'd like to better understand them. Plus, now that I'm living eight hours away from them, I guess I'm a bit lonely for them, even though the friction and misunderstandings at times were almost more than I could bear.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormySunshine View Post
    I smiled when I read that because it sounds almost exactly like my mother . And please don't think I'm being sarcastic, because I honestly mean that in a nice way. It goes right along with what we're talking about, SJ's and N's having so many problems communicating and understanding each other.

    That's not the way I expected my words to be interpreted, but maybe I could have stated it better. I guess I'll fall into INTJ mode for a bit to try to explain my reasoning. The quotation marks around the word thoughtless were put there to show that I had perceived that to be thoughtless at that moment, not because she had meant to be thoughtless, but because it seemed to me at that time that she hadn't put a lot of thought into if I'd like it. I had just entered junior high, and all of the kids I went to school with were making fun of that toy, saying it was for little kids, and it was being marketed for little kids. As soon as I saw it, all of those thoughts went through my mind, and I couldn't believe that she knew so little about me as to believe that I wanted a small child's stuffed animal.

    When I said that I cried, I didn't mean I immediately started balling upon opening the gift. I tried holding it in, but when my mom asked me if I liked it, I couldn't any longer. Again, I wasn't so upset because I disliked the gift, but because I felt like she didn't know me. It was an incredibly lonely feeling. I in no way wanted to cry, and I certainly did not do it to gain any sort of attention. On the contrary, I knew what reaction my crying would evoke, and because I hate any form of confrontation, the last thing I wanted was to start one.

    My mom's reaction went way beyond anything that an eleven year old crying over a toy should have evoked. I didn't really want to explain it in detail, partly because it brings back unpleasant memories, but maybe it will help you to understand better. She started out genuinely confused, but when I couldn't explain properly the problem I had it quickly changed to anger. She started yelling that nobody cared about her at all, and no one every thought about her. All she ever did was give, and everyone just took from her. When I became even more upset, she grabbed my arm, pulled me into the bathroom, and told me to stare into the mirror so that I could see how ugly I was when I cried. She then went back into the living room and cried, saying how she didn't understand why nobody cared about her.

    When I went to leave the bathroom after a couple of minutes, she started screaming that I better stay in front of that mirror until every tear was gone.

    I don't know if you know many INFP's or INFJ's personally, but they are extremely sensitive. Even thinking back to that time has me near tears now. Every single thing that she said was meant to push those emotional triggers in me. You know what the truly ironic thing was? If all she had done was hug me when I started crying, I would have been happy, and would have immediately loved the toy, because then in my mind it wouldn't have been a thoughtless gift, but instead a present from my mom who loved me. She wouldn't have even had to say anything to me. She didn't need to push any emotional triggers in me to make me love her. She's my mom, and that's enough.

    I'm sorry I evoked such strong emotions in you saslou. I guess I'm just more used to being over in the NF area of the forums where everyone instantly intuits what I'm saying. I'll try to be more respectful when I'm in this section in the future, so that there aren't more misunderstandings. I wandered to the SJ section because all of my family are SJ's, and I'd like to better understand them. Plus, now that I'm living eight hours away from them, I guess I'm a bit lonely for them, even though the friction and misunderstandings at times were almost more than I could bear.
    I read this and had to walk away to collect my thoughts.
    OK. I have no problems understanding NT's to an extent, Its some NF's that i struggle with.
    For me personally, say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't play with words. I take peoples words literally. If it not meant to be taken that way, then don't do it.

    Reading your initial comment, pissed me off (i am being honest). From the info you gave, it came across like it was all about you, your thoughts and feelings. I can only go on that info and give my opinion.

    Now i can understand your mum being annoyed, that time/effort and money put into a gift and you get upset over it. What about your other gifts? Why focus on the one you didn't like. Damn i was given some crappy gifts at xmas as a kid. Socks, a tray, santa candles. *tut* lol. I just said thanks and enjoyed more the cool gifts i received.
    Now your mums behaviour over that, was horrible. I couldn't imagine doing that to my children. (now quite a few years back everyone chipped in and we got my kids a PS2, it was the last gift they opened. My youngest at the time opened it and was so ungrateful. I was freaking hurt over that, as it cost so much money, i didn't lash out and i didn't let it ruin the day. I just told myself, i will never buy such an expensive gift again. Now i know he is an ENTP, i have him figured out . He didn't give the reaction i was looking for, but then he isn't me). I would like to believe your mum is sincerely sorry for that incident. She shouldn't of pushed the emotional trigger. Also bear in mind though, people are learning all the time about themselves. I am not what i was a year ago. Does she still behave the same now?

    I think i worked with 2 NF's, but i don't know any IRL. I personally think we are not a good match, maybe due to the comunication problems. Your too sensitive for me (and a bit fluffy ). I used to be incredibly sensitive myself, and took everything as personal criticism. I am now stronger than i have ever been. I suppose although my F is always there so i will help anyone and show compassion even if i am getting shit on. I can to an extent turn it off and look at things logically.
    Now stop talking about being respectful in future, you are being you. If this is you, then don't change it. You won't get on with everyone in life. Accept it, but never change who you are.
    If you 8 hours away and miss them, call or email them just so you stay in the loop.

    I hope i am not coming across as a bitch. I say it how it is. I just look at NF's sometimes and think you need to toughen up a bit. You seem to drip with feelings and sensitivity. This might be due to growing up around T's, i don't know.

    Anyway.
    Please don't be put off messaging in here, SJ's don't bite.
    (i am just a bit forward sometimes)
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  8. #18
    Junior Member StormySunshine's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply saslou. I'm glad I was able to clear that up. By respectful I was mainly meaning that I would try to "say what I mean" as you put it from now on in the SJ section rather than try to obscure it. I try to hide my sensitivity and fluffiness at times because I was taught growing up that it was a weakness, and so sometimes it'll make what I'm saying vague, because I'm leaving out the meat and potatoes of what I'm feeling. I think most NF's fill in the blanks pretty well, which was who I was writing to since one started this thread, but I should have instead written to the SJ's who are reading this in their section.

    My mom has been like that through most of my life. I found ways to deal with it which I mentioned in that first post. Now that it is later in her life, she has mellowed out much more; I think removing much of the stress of raising a family and having a full time job has helped her a lot. She has been surprising me in recent years as to the level of empathy she shows me, something she never did growing up. Now we talk on Facebook frequently, and play a lot of Facebook games together. I'm still very guarded emotionally around my family, but I love them all very much, and so long as I'm able to be more myself in other aspects of my life I'm content.

    It wasn't like my whole childhood was like that either. There were times when she would fight for me tooth and nail when no one else would. I particularly remember an instance when I was in sixth grade and had just received a detention in school (the first one ever) for forgetting to put away my band book in band class (something which is certainly common for INJ children to do). I had tried explaining to my band teacher that I didn't mean to, and to the principle. I was very hurt and confused, especially since in my mind I hadn't done anything wrong, and I was always the golden child in school and I had never been in trouble before in my life. When I came home, she immediately knew something was wrong, and when she asked me what had happened, I started crying and told her about the detention. She immediately called the school and yelled at the principle for about 10 minutes, something I'll never forget.

    Don't worry, I plan on sticking around here. There's still more I want to find out about SJ's, because like briochick, they still baffle me, even after living with them my whole life.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StormySunshine View Post
    Thanks for the reply saslou. I'm glad I was able to clear that up. By respectful I was mainly meaning that I would try to "say what I mean" as you put it from now on in the SJ section rather than try to obscure it. I try to hide my sensitivity and fluffiness at times because I was taught growing up that it was a weakness, and so sometimes it'll make what I'm saying vague, because I'm leaving out the meat and potatoes of what I'm feeling. I think most NF's fill in the blanks pretty well, which was who I was writing to since one started this thread, but I should have instead written to the SJ's who are reading this in their section.

    My mom has been like that through most of my life. I found ways to deal with it which I mentioned in that first post. Now that it is later in her life, she has mellowed out much more; I think removing much of the stress of raising a family and having a full time job has helped her a lot. She has been surprising me in recent years as to the level of empathy she shows me, something she never did growing up. Now we talk on Facebook frequently, and play a lot of Facebook games together. I'm still very guarded emotionally around my family, but I love them all very much, and so long as I'm able to be more myself in other aspects of my life I'm content.

    It wasn't like my whole childhood was like that either. There were times when she would fight for me tooth and nail when no one else would. I particularly remember an instance when I was in sixth grade and had just received a detention in school (the first one ever) for forgetting to put away my band book in band class (something which is certainly common for INJ children to do). I had tried explaining to my band teacher that I didn't mean to, and to the principle. I was very hurt and confused, especially since in my mind I hadn't done anything wrong, and I was always the golden child in school and I had never been in trouble before in my life. When I came home, she immediately knew something was wrong, and when she asked me what had happened, I started crying and told her about the detention. She immediately called the school and yelled at the principle for about 10 minutes, something I'll never forget.

    Don't worry, I plan on sticking around here. There's still more I want to find out about SJ's, because like briochick, they still baffle me, even after living with them my whole life.
    Sensitivity and fluffiness is not a weakness, however i do see it as that in myself, as it opens me up to being manipulated and abused.
    I'm a limey so i am a meat and potatoe kind of girl
    I don't know about ISFJ's but something i have come to realise recently. I can't do stress. As much as i would like to be superwoman, i don't have it in me. Work, kids, partner, cook, cleaner, accountant etc. I am now aware i must delegate some of the work so i can be in a happier place.
    Thats nice that you can still bond from a distance.
    Fighting tooth and nail for your kids, Lol, been there and done that. I must of looked like some crazy person. But never hurt the people i love.

    I am glad you are going to stick around. It just takes time.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  10. #20
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
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    Stormysunshine: Thank you so much for your response, and I'm sorry that it took me a little while to respond (there have been pretty awful storms in my area recently and I didn't want to fry my computer). I almost cried reading your story. Not because it's the most horrible thing I've ever heard, but because I could relate. That sense of being not known, especially as a tween when you feel it so acutely and don't know that it will ever be lifted, only to feel it magnified in a time that's supposed to be close (and for use that means being known and knowing), can be devastating. And, very difficult to explain.
    My mother has said some really horrible things to me too. Things that probably wouldn't be horrible if she'd said them to a different personality type...maybe. She also expected me to act like an adult when I was a child and has brought up really petulant things I said (at, oh, say 11 or 12) years of age to say "well, see, you hurt me too so you deserved what I did." and I've been like "I was a *kid*," and she'll say "well, excuse me for expecting so much from you," like it was my fault for sometimes being immature at an immature age.
    My mother is also Enneagram 1w2. And will do about anything to keep from taking responsibility for a perceived failure (ie Me: "Oh, you threw out those old pants from college? That sucks. It would have been cool to wear the retro style. Her: It's not *my* fault! I asked you if you liked them! You said you'd never wear them so I thew them away!" Me: "...when was this?" Her: "When I pulled them out, you were about 14." Me: "Yes, I was young, and my tastes change. How was I to know I'd like that style years later?" Her: "I don't change!" Me (to myself): 'boy, have I noticed.' And, the entire thing could have ended without any blame. I say it sucks, then you say "yeah, it does.").

    But, she can be really sweet too. I also agree that I get along better with her when I live far away from her.

    Traditionally I have problems with SJs, especially ESJs, who seem to have a knee jerk response of hating me.

    Saslou: thank you for your input. It's always interesting (if not at times a bit personally upsetting) to get such a different perspective from my own.
    -Brio

    "I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life; I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well."
    -Teddy Roosevelt
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